Thread: Chisels. Lie nielsen A2 Vs o1

Originally Posted by skippy

My main thing is is there any real difference from A2 vs o1 steel in general use?

Good question and I reckon your suspicions are correct, O1 vs A2 is an over-rated argument, especially if you are already a competent sharpener.

I suspect LN are (privately) a bit bemused by the demand for O1 but provide what the customers think they want/need.

I was looking for quality chisels too. For value for money and quality I chose these.

Ashley Iles beveled Bench Chisels

Ashley Iles Mark 2 Bench Chisels
"English Pattern" (Cabinetmaker's Chisels)and

Ashley Iles Corner Chisels

3/8" Corner Chisel

They came in a denim tool roll razor sharp and with postage to me in Vic from USA. I paid $397.00 all up for 12 chisels and they gave me an extra Ashley isles 5/8 chisel with beech handle. 13 chisels in all.

Woodworking Tools at The Best Things

It was all cheaper buying from the USA than it was to buy from Ashley Iles in the UK.


Regards
Col.

Originally Posted by skippy

it seems the o1 has the edge (pun intended) at more acute sharpening angles i.e. 30 deg to 25. I assume the A2 will work just as well at those angles but will need sharpening more often. Is this a correct assumption?

You have it back to front. A2 will need less frequent sharpening at the same bevel angel in comparison to O1.

LN suggests that you have a 30º secondary bevel for A2, O1 will be the same. I have been playing with bevel angles on my M2 chisels. I find that at 20º is comparable to an O1 at 30º, at 25º it is comparable to A2 at 30º. At 30º the M2 will outlast the A2 by an even large factor.

I prefer the lowest cutting angle I can get away with as it makes pairing significantly easier.

If you are a competent sharpener I would go with the A2. LN is a good brand, and while its not the best you cannot find much fault with them. If you buy them direct from the USA you can get them for about $65 each.

The only other brands of merit is Blue Spruce Chisels and Harold & Saxon, however here you see as a major price jump.

You may also consider Japanese chisels. If you send an email to Stu from Tools from Japan he can find you what you want at your price range.

Thanks Thumbsucker.
I was just checking the lie nielsen site and they reckon the 01 is best for lower angles i.e 25 deg to say 20 and the A2 at 30 deg to say 35. Might just be my terminology, i mean by more accute angle, 25 deg and lower. I would love some H&S but the price is definitely in another league and the lead in time for a set is way to long for me. Havent seen the Blue Spruce ones anywhere, might have to have a look on the web.

Skippy, since you are starting from scratch and have a wide choice, you might want to consider is the size of the chisels. LNs are quite small, with small handles. I have relatively small hands & prefer smaller tools and I find them just right for dovetailing and any work that involves walloping with a mallet. OTOH, they are not my preferred tools for paring. Besides their dinky size, they have ultra-sharp side edges and tend to cut your hands if you're not careful. I have a goodly collection of "golden oldies" including Swans, Buck Bros., New Haven Edge Tool and several others. These have much longer blades & larger handles and are much more preferable for paring.

The Ashley Isles have larger handles, and longer blades, but still have fine, well-ground shoulders for getting into dovetail corners. They might well be a better bet as all-rounders than something like the LNs, if you want to be practical.

All of the tools mentioned so far are likely to be decent metal. I think we get carried away with metal hardness sometimes, and forget about some of the other aspects that make tools user-friendly.

Cheers,

Thanks Ian
I do have large hands so the size may be an issue. I havent actually seen these chisels in real life as yet. I am not sure who stocks them in Queensland either in order to view them.
I have a set of stanleys for general chisel work but want a pretty good set for finer precision type work.
I see on fleabay USA an older set of long bladed Bergs they also seem like a nice set

I have some of the Blue Spruce (ordered direct) in A2 - very nice chisels indeed.

Superior to LN IMHO, maybe not quite up there with H&S, but Blue Spruce can make custom chisels with your choice of handle and deliver in a couple of weeks. You'll be waiting rather longer than that for H&S.....

The one benefit of the LN chisels is that being socket style you can turn up handles in any shape you like if the standard ones are too small.

Its also easy to swap the standard handle out for a long paring handle as required - I only have one paring handle to share between my set of LNs, but will probably make a couple more now that I have a lathe.

Originally Posted by Mr Brush

The one benefit of the LN chisels is that being socket style you can turn up handles in any shape you like if the standard ones are too small.

Its also easy to swap the standard handle out for a long paring handle as required - I only have one paring handle to share between my set of LNs, but will probably make a couple more now that I have a lathe.

Mr Brush - good point - I meant to mention that too. In fact I have made all new handles for my LNs. It wasn't a size issue, as I said, I prefer them small, but I have a full set going up in 16ths, and by putting different woods on them, I can more easily see which is which!

Putting a longer handle on makes them better for paring, no question, but do watch out for those sharp sides. I've thought about running a diamond file over the upper edges of mine to make them a bit friendlier. Will get around to it one day soon (like next time I cut myself).

Take note that the socket is bigger on the larger chisels when turning up new handles. I always work off the old handle if there is one, or measure the socket anyway. The LNs are consistent, but on older chisels, no two sockets are ever quite the same...

Cheers,

I'd like to echo Ian's remarks about the size of LN chisels too. I purchased a set of H&S chisels after sampling them at the WW show in '08 primarily because of the quality, but the reason I even bothered to look - having already set my eye on the LN tools - was becasuse the LN chisels looks far to small.

Side-by-side with the H&S the LN chisels looked un-rugged and un-lovely. After handling them both there was no longer a contest, and I have small hands too.

I guess my advise is this; if you have something to go on with I reckon you should try before you buy. All the debate in the world is for naught until you get to try them on for size.

Thanks guys for you opinions and advise. I did find the "blue spruce" chisels on the net and are they flash looking or what. I like the longer blade as well. I still come back to the H&S chisels though as i am a "buy Australian" type
Your advise on waiting and actually hadling a few different high end chisels makes sense and i SHOULD !! do this.
I still have a dilemma re the different steels used however and the more i research the more confused i am getting. Before it was only between o1 vs A2, now this list has D2 and M2 thrown in.
Thanks Again

From a purely engineering materials perspective the 4 mentioned carbon steels stack up as follows

Toughest is M2 and A2
Mid tough is O1
Least tought is D2

Most sharp is O1
Mid sharp is M2 and A2
Least sharp is D2

Longest edge holding ability is O1
Then M2 and A2
And least is D2

D2 is chosen due to it's high chrome content making it almost stainless... it's all about aesthetics and not about substance
A2 is almost as good as D2 at looking pretty due to high chrome but it's tougher and sharper
M2 is used for band saw blades as it holds its temper with high heat. It has similar mechanical properties to A2 but it rusts easily.
O1 holds the sharpest edge for longest but the drawback is it rusts easily. You can easily make up for this aesthetic issue by using a coating like Boeshield once every few months.

Just to throw another spanner in the works, Veritas have their new bench chisels available in PM-V11 steel. This appears to combine the best properties of A2 and O1, while retaining ease of sharpening.

Veritas® PM-V11™ Bench Chisels - Lee Valley Tools

Google PM-V11 to find out more - Chris Schwarz has written a couple of short pieces on the new PM-V11 steel, and there is some detailed test information available on the Veritas webpage.

I think our own Derek Cohen has reviewed the Veritas bench chisels in standard O1 steel.

A bit of light reading for you

Veritas PM-V11 - Story

This shows how PM-V11 relates to some of the steels mentioned by Tempus4 above.