Thread: Comb Back Windsor Chair

no doubt the videos would be excellent, but I think one should keep in mind the timbers used over there are different. You may have to bend the rules to get good results.

Mostly its do with riving. Some australian timbers don't rive well yet still are strong (interlocking grain etc). IMO, actually riving some timbers will take you backwards. Straight grain can be easily sighted most of the time, and there other advantages to sighting grain. With practise I believe sighting grain is superior to riving….

Just have a means of testing the parts and you should be ok.

I'm not discrediting the videos. They'd be excellent no doubt.

just an opinion. not an expert in anything. 2 cents worth.

Originally Posted by JDarvall

no doubt the videos would be excellent, but I think one should keep in mind the timbers used over there are different. You may have to bend the rules to get good results.

Mostly its do with riving. Some australian timbers don't rive well yet still are strong (interlocking grain etc). IMO, actually riving some timbers will take you backwards. Straight grain can be easily sighted most of the time, and there other advantages to sighting grain. With practise I believe sighting grain is superior to riving….

Dunno, Jake, there are good splitters and poor splitters in both places - even with woods that usually split clean & straight, you can strike a real mongrel tree that just doesn't want to cooperate. You've done a bit of riving, so I reckon you can give us a few pointers, but I would think it takes a while to learn to do it well. I've only had a couple of goes with a froe, and it wasn't as easy for me as some blokes make it look. And I had a lot of experience knocking fence-posts out of trees, in my wasted youth, so I have some idea of how wood splits.

In general, I use the bandsaw for breaking small logs down for turning chair parts, too, so I'm with you there. I agree that you can generally sight and follow the grain accurately enough, and it can be less wasteful than splitting, which gives you so many triangles. So far, (touch wood!) I've only had one back spindle and a stretcher break down in use, and both had a patch of oblique grain where they let go, which I really should have seen during the turning, but somehow missed it. (Have had a couple of seats let go along a glue-line, too, due to use of PVA glue, which I now avoid like poison for those sorts of jobs!). However, I do 'rive' (I use an old hatchet as my 'froe'), some woods like the black wattles that grow around my place, mainly because they can have such unpredictable grain, and splitting rather than sawing will quickly give you an idea if there's enough straight sections to make it worthwhile continuing with it for chair parts. Otherwise, it makes excellent firewood!

I remember a post from quite a while back, where you said you'd been experimenting with local woods to figure out what did what best for Windsor style chair parts - have you now got yourself a short-list of woods that you reckon do each job the best? After trying maybe 15-20 different woods, my 'favourites' are young River Oak for legs & spindles (with 'good' wattle at #2). Both turn well and take good detail (on average). So far, Jacaranda is my prime choice for seats because it's easy to carve, and though not up to the strength of the traditional Elm, it's still plenty strong enough to do the job well. The grain is also very much like Elm, and if you stained it right, it could be hard to spot the difference without taking a very close look. One problem is that the local woods I've tried are all a lot denser than most of the traditional chair woods, so unless you fine your turnings back as much as you can, the chairs end up being a bit too 'solid'.

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

So far, Jacaranda is my prime choice for seats because it's easy to carve, and though not up to the strength of the traditional Elm, it's still plenty strong enough to do the job well. The grain is also very much like Elm, and if you stained it right, it could be hard to spot the difference without taking a very close look.

Ian - that's very interesting - do you have any pics you could post?

John

Originally Posted by jcge

Ian - that's very interesting - do you have any pics you could post?..

Hi John - do you mean a pic of Jacaranda grain? Seat jacaranda.jpg

If you can enlarge it enough, you will see that wavy grain pattern that both Elm & Jacaranda have. Of course it's easy enough to pick them as raw wood, by colour & density.

Here's a chair made from River oak (Allocasaurina cunninghamii) with a Jacaranda seat & back rail: Chair r_oak & jac.jpg

Cheers,

I don't know a dang thing about turning. I assume that perhaps some of his technique is non-standard (?)

But that leg looks very nice to me.

Originally Posted by pmcgee

I don't know a dang thing about turning. I assume that perhaps some of his technique is non-standard (?)

But that leg looks very nice to me.

I'm a self-taught turner too, so I'm not sure I do anything the 'right way', but there are a couple of things I noticed that look rather awkward to me, like using a roughing gouge where I would use a fingernail gouge (much easier to maintain a heavy shearing cut), and his bead-turning with the skew looks very non-standard! However, as I keep saying, what works, works, and yes, the finished product is a crisp, nicely-shaped leg...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

After trying maybe 15-20 different woods, my 'favourites' are young River Oak for legs & spindles (with 'good' wattle at #2). Both turn well and take good detail (on average).

Cheers,

I'm glad you said young river oak. Its my favourite too. I've felt alone on that opinion for quite a long time. I've been laughed at with insinuations of ineptness for wanting such small trees

It bends well, in a nice mysterious sort of way, because I'm still not certain of details that make it bend well sometimes. Because it bends so well (sometimes in that mysterious way) I can put it into the tight radiuses and put the harder older trees into the rest. So I can have all one timber, which annoyingly, is what people seem to want. And I can control the movement of the seat for glue up with a kiln process which insures stability despite high movement values.

what I can remember right now on other timbers….
-the other good bender for me is …spotted gum. but it not as interesting. Only time I like its natural colour is when I rub black stain through the grain and rub off again, then with a light oil finish over the top. Warm look to it in my opinion.
-Rosegum bends a bit, but not great. But a hybrid of it bends better.
-Salleywattle (blackwood) bends well. well known to. looks good.
-Jacarandas pretty and stable. Insect resistant too. Stronger than cedar. Very light, but a poor bender I've found. I've managed to bend it sufficiently for bar stool legs by choosing good bend points by eye (no riving. wouldn't work if riven) And the jacaranda stool surprisingly survived my strength tests.
- old growth red cedar straight grain bends pretty well for legs. But its hard to get straight. Any runout fractures in a very dangerous way. I tried to contribute recently to a red cedar exhibition and my strength test of the cedar stool I made with runout was a disaster. The strength test weights the seat and 3 legs sheared simultaneously on runout points with a little twist of the seat. relatively mild runout I though. Gave me quite a fright. The only timber that has failed in my stools. Basically, its what would have happened if a big bloke sat on the stool and twisted on his the seat to look behind him. So, ideally the best way to use such a weak material seems to go M&T with heavy looking proportions in a bulky looking frame that stops any kind of racking or twist. (or laminate)
- grey gum bends well for its density. I love the stuff, but am rubbished for using it, because its labeled a construction timber. For quite a while I called in bloodwood, because the miller, who knew best, told me thats what it was.
- latest one I've got is Pecan. From initial tests and what I've read on it, it bends very well. It has a pale colour similar to jacaranda too so I can see a match there.

****
as for riving…..if you got a bloke experienced with riving and another that was experienced sighting grain of planed timber by eye…I think one would find their results would be very similar. ( a generalised comment though)

just an opinion. not an expert. 2 cents worth.

Originally Posted by IanW

Hi John - do you mean a pic of Jacaranda grain? Seat jacaranda.jpg

Ian - thanks for posting this pic - exactly what I was after. The grain sure does look similar to elm, and with he right colouration and glazing (JDarvall - "rub black stain through the grain and rub off again") could be pretty convincing.

Thanks and regards
John

Originally Posted by jcge

Ian - thanks for posting this pic - exactly what I was after. The grain sure does look similar to elm, and with he right colouration and glazing (JDarvall - "rub black stain through the grain and rub off again") could be pretty convincing.

Thanks and regards
John

John (you got a bite. assuming your fishing)….. the stain in spotted gum was just an idea on what I felt looked best with spotted gum if you chose to use it. the black gets into the grain and brings more interest to it. Followed by a non penetrating finish (not layered) in my opinion. Else its boring in my opinion. Its a shame it not pretty, because it one of the better benders.

Jacaranda doesn't bend well, so it limits your windsor chair making.

personally I don't understand the need to have a timber look like another.

I've also heard woodworkers say they like to put a little yellow in the finish for Jacaranda so it resembles Huon Pine. Why ?

If I want the look of elm, I use elm. Since I can't get elm, I don't look for timbers that resemble it.
if I want the look of jacaranda, I use jacaranda.
if I want spotted gum I use spotted gum.

My post wasn't an attempt to create competition or convince, if that was your impression.

I mean, John….. spare a thought for those that think jacaranda looks better than elm and Huon. How would you feel if you were told that your loved jacaranda was only being used because it resembled something else ? . bit insensitive.

Originally Posted by JDarvall

......personally I don't understand the need to have a timber look like another.... (

Jake, in general, I agree with you that there is little point in wanting to make a wood look like something it ain't. But I had a good reason for wanting a wood that resembled Elm. Just once. I needed to make a couple of matching chairs for a not quite full set of old chairs, and the seats were Elm. At the time, I couldn't source any suitable Elm for love or money, but I did have some Jacaranda, so I used that & some stain. The result was pretty convincing, I thought. In fact I saw the chairs a couple of weeks ago for the first time in close to 20 years. The light wasn't super good, I must admit, but with 20 years of use on them, I could not pick my fakes from the originals without tipping them up (didn't bother staining the underside ).

So dunno if that is a good enough reason to want to make one wood like another, but it got me out of a spot.....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by JDarvall

John (you got a bite. assuming your fishing)….. the stain in spotted gum was just an idea on what I felt looked best with spotted gum if you chose to use it. the black gets into the grain and brings more interest to it. Followed by a non penetrating finish (not layered) in my opinion. Else its boring in my opinion. Its a shame it not pretty, because it one of the better benders.

Jacaranda doesn't bend well, so it limits your windsor chair making.

personally I don't understand the need to have a timber look like another.

I've also heard woodworkers say they like to put a little yellow in the finish for Jacaranda so it resembles Huon Pine. Why ?

If I want the look of elm, I use elm. Since I can't get elm, I don't look for timbers that resemble it.
if I want the look of jacaranda, I use jacaranda.
if I want spotted gum I use spotted gum.

My post wasn't an attempt to create competition or convince, if that was your impression.

I mean, John….. spare a thought for those that think jacaranda looks better than elm and Huon. How would you feel if you were told that your loved jacaranda was only being used because it resembled something else ? . bit insensitive.

Hi Jake

If I've caused you some aggravation you have my unreserved apology. I simply picked up on Ian's comments about the similarity between the jacaranda and elm, and that highlighting the grain (the process as you described it, albeit in relation to spotted gum) would further the similarity.

I was drawn to the topic (of local materials and their properties) from the standpoint of availability alone, and will certainly be following this thread from that perspective.

Apologies

John.

Originally Posted by jcge

Hi Jake

If I've caused you some aggravation you have my unreserved apology. I simply picked up on Ian's comments about the similarity between the jacaranda and elm, and that highlighting the grain (the process as you described it, albeit in relation to spotted gum) would further the similarity.

I was drawn to the topic (of local materials and their properties) from the standpoint of availability alone, and will certainly be following this thread from that perspective.

Apologies

John.

I shouldn't have been bothered by these little things that I've probably misread and I'm sorry I put you in a position to apologise. Other unrelated dramas have made me a bit sensitive I'm thinking.

sorry mate
Jake

Originally Posted by IanW

Jake, in general, I agree with you that there is little point in wanting to make a wood look like something it ain't. But I had a good reason for wanting a wood that resembled Elm. Just once. I needed to make a couple of matching chairs for a not quite full set of old chairs, and the seats were Elm. At the time, I couldn't source any suitable Elm for love or money, but I did have some Jacaranda, so I used that & some stain. The result was pretty convincing, I thought. In fact I saw the chairs a couple of weeks ago for the first time in close to 20 years. The light wasn't super good, I must admit, but with 20 years of use on them, I could not pick my fakes from the originals without tipping them up (didn't bother staining the underside ).

So dunno if that is a good enough reason to want to make one wood like another, but it got me out of a spot.....

Cheers,

I see what your saying. I think its impressive that you made that match.

Personally I think my dislike for making timbers look like others, comes from the critizim that windsor chairs made here aren't the real thing because , uno,….. 'they aren't even using the right timber'. …not using beech, or elm, or white oak.

I kinda like the fact that we are forced to used local timbers, amongst other things, because the adaption needed to make local timbers work alters the designs. Helps to make the chairs more our own, rather than seen by some as another knockoff of the 'mother' country or american designs.. Not that any of that really has mattered to me when my heads in it, but its be nice to put a stop to hearing it occasionally when I gota be social.

And after a while, advantages in local timbers over european ones becomes clear too, as shocking as it may sound.

I'd like to hear a reversal on it all one day…..like….' yeah I was forced to use elm, because I ran out of river oak. "

Well I'm up to video 19 and it is a great watch. Admittedly I don't have a shed atm so I'm a bit starved for woodwork but I would still recommend anyone who is interested have a watch.
Curtis has a very easy going presentation style and constantly lets you know his thought processes as he is working. A pleasure to watch a skilled craftsman work.
Thanks for posting Paul