Thread: Coping saws?

Originally Posted by Basilg

.........Can I see a who can produce the lightest bow saw thread on the horizon ? Or have you really kicked the saw making habit .......

Hi Baz - nope, I am not trying to start any competitions along those lines.

I started fining-down my saw parts to get the weight down to where it felt light & maouverable (and also to make them look a bit more attractive, I admit). I think they need a bit of 'heft', but you can easily overdo it. The first couple of saws I made not only looked clumsy, they were! For myself, I wouldn't want the finished saw to be any lighter than the one I'm using now.

Refining them to the current size & shape was just an intuitive process, whittling away any excess to get the shape I wanted, but preserving necessary strength where it's needed. I pay most attention to the arms, looking for a nice amount of 'curve' but presserving some long-grain running from top to bottom. In fact, the last two saws I made (there were probably 7 or 8 prior to that) were the first ones I actually weighed. I did that because I wanted to compare the Ash-framed saw with the Acacia-framed ones. I didn't know how the Ash would stand up, so left it a little bit bulkier. My impression on hefting the finished saws was that the Ash saw was still lighter, despite its slightly more generous frame size. Actually, I was surprised at how close the weights are - not sure I can pich weights to a couple of persent! So I think the difference was partly in my mind. What was even more interesting to me was how close the frames themselves are (187g vs 189g) - my 'intuition' sometimes works!

There is probably little practical difference between a 10" and a 12" saw for the jobs I use them for - the 12 will give you a slightly longer stroke of course, but I'm used to shorter saws, so that's not an issue for me. Somewhere in the future I will probably make a 12" saw, out of curiosity, but I've put saw-making aside for the moment....

Cheers,

Ian

The Lighter saw has finished up at 260 gm total weight with the frame at 135 gm handles at 105 gm and the remainder for toggle, blade, and cord.

It has survived the tensioning, and whilst I have not answered my own question as to how far the scantlings can be reduced without a breakup, I think I will give that exercise a rest for the moment, as this saw is cutting very nicely, with the control at an optimum for me

Not being very musical I cannot say it is tensioned to high or low C, but it is singing nicely. I am using Brickies string line for the cord, which looks nice and is working OK. I have a 600 mm european bowsaw which has a metal tensioner which works great, but like yourself I would not wish to have that on a saw of this size.

Regards

Basil - you have certainly produced a slim little number there. Looks like a very nice little saw, well done! I suspect you would have to tension it way beyond what's necessary, to break it. I see you have kept the string side of the arms short, to reduce the force that can be applied by the string. But only sure way to test it thoroughly is to use it, of course, so make it earn its keep.

One last question - is that a Grammercy blade, and if so, do they cut as well as they claim? It looks to be about 5mm or a bit less wide, is that correct?
(OK, that was three questions, I never was great with numbers...).

Cheers,

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

For hacking off Kurrajong branches, I presume you had one of those reasonably hefty metal-framed saws? We used one on our place for limbing & other jobs where the 6 foot "one man" saw was too clumsy. It had a nice M-tooth-raker blade and the old pot kept it in good fettle, so it would sail through a good sized limb in jig time.

Cheers,

That's correct. I had a 600mm size and a 900mm size. Kurrajong is extremely soft and they work quite well on that, but later I tried a piece of ironbark and It would even go near it. At a later date a friend gave me a machete and I use dthat on the Kurrajong, which is an indication of how soft it is. I found it better than the bow saw.

Back to the topic . The original question was are there any good coping saws. I guess from your comments and those of others the answer is "no." Consequently you have made up your own saws. which are a cross between the traditional bow saw and the coping saw. I researched the terms and came up with the following pix.

This was as more for my enlightenment than others.

Regards
Paul

Ian

Yes I believe it will take a lot more tension than what is needed. I decided in the end to leave it as it was, as it was performing well, and any further weight reduction may be counter productive.

the Blade is a Gramercy is 1/8 " wide & 16 tpi. I would not describe this blade as giving a smooth cut as it has a fair amount of set on the teeth, if the set was eased a bit the cut would be a lot smoother. However the ability of the saw to make the tight radius cuts would then be reduced, so it comes down to what it is you want the saw to do, and it should not be difficult to reduce the set of the teeth a little.

Regards

Originally Posted by Basilg

...... I would not describe this blade as giving a smooth cut as it has a fair amount of set on the teeth, if the set was eased a bit the cut would be a lot smoother. However the ability of the saw to make the tight radius cuts would then be reduced, so it comes down to what it is you want the saw to do, and it should not be difficult to reduce the set of the teeth a little....

Yes, it's the same with coping saw blades, & for the same reason, I expect. I keep the set a bit lighter on the blades I make, but they still leave a rough cut compared to a well-sharpened & set backsaw. I put that down to the fact that the blade wobbles a bit, no matter how carefully you saw (long, steady strokes help, but don't eliminate the problem entirely). You get bettter with practice, of course, but because I don't saw intricate shapes every day with mine, I'm not as deft with it as I am with my dovetail saw, for example. Out of interest, I made a wider blade (~20mm), to see if that would give me cleaner straight cuts. It does, but not as much as I hoped, so I rarely bother changing blades. My strategy is to cut wider of the line than I would with 'straight' saws and clean up to the line with rasps & files. It probably takes less time than trying to saw perfectly, & is a lot safer that way!

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Ian


Are the fret saw and the bow saw one and the same or is there a subtle difference?

I have always thought of a bow saw as a metal framed saw used for pruning small limbs. I appreciate I am displaying my philistine characteristics here.

In fact during one of our more persistent droughts I climbed a Kurrajong tree every day (not the same tree) to lop off branches to feed starving cattle using one of these devices.

Regards
Paul

not the same tree, cracks me up!


to add to Ian's comments, albeit somewhat conversly, from my perspective they, fret, coping, bow, frame are all different, for (sometimes slightly) different purposes/uses but the common name of 'bow-saw' does have that overlap , particularly with the contemporary tree limb cutting variety available around these parts (bunnys and garden centers)..the best way to think of it might be to separate the frame from the saw-blade, meaning you can put blades with different tooth configurations into a bow (aka frame) saw that will serve a different purpose. and i have no idea whether its even remotely correct (i've never looked it up) but i always thought the bow-saw was called a bow-saw because it tensioned up just like an old 'bow' you know, as in bow and arrow, call it weird but thats what i always thought of it, the modern steel bow-saws tension as well even though they dont have the same configuration as old style wooden ones, so their still bow-saws. which to my way of thinking means all frames saws can be called bow saws, if you like..turning saws is also a name often used, as Ian said the poms sometimes call em that, and i associate 'turning saws' as bow-saws but i cant say i ever referred to them as that myself, just frame and bow saws

however, traditionally i've always separated them (even though there can be overlap) to different size and uses, coping saws turns down to 5-10mm without mucking about with set on the tooth (life's too short for that isnt it ), i turn at 90 deg but thats another story/technique, about 10+mm for a novice might be safe) have a blade about 6 inch and about that in depth of cut before it hits the frame (dunno after all these years i still havnt measured em), fret saws you could consider the same as coping saws but with varying length necks to reach deeper into the stock, blade length is typically about 5" nowadays although i have some old ones that are different, like some modern scroll saws (which often take the same blades as fret saws) they are often to cut very intricate work with smaller curves e.g 'fret work' . like coping saws are still popular today with cabinet makers and carpenters and joiners(think there might not be many joiners left), fret saws are popular with metal workers (jewellery makers and the like i believe) and also cabinet makers and whom ever the people are called that do fret work, like coping saws they take some practise to control well (adhering to lines) but after a bit you can do alright...i used to steer far away from fret saws, unless the depth was needed, because traditionally fret saw were always 12'-24' deep which made them unruly to handle in jobs you didnt require the throat depth, but nowadays they are a worthwhile addition to the cabinet maker, mainly because the blades come in wide range, closing the gap between them and coping saws but also fret saws come with shorter necks/throats which makes them near the same as coping saws for all intensive purposes, the only difference being the blade length (5" vs 6"). coping saw blades usually have the pins on them though which makes them arguably easier to install and tighten than fret saws blades

bow-saws are (imo) meant to be bigger (for slightly larger work) and take blades varying from about 8" to about 16" , usually about 10" or 12" is common, thats not to say someone cant make themselves a wooden fret saw (to take 5" blades) but generally speaking, thats where bow saws are at. they also usually take blades wider than a coping saw, where the coping saw leaves off the bow saw takes up, so about 1/4 inch is common width for a bow saw blade. Ian says he cuts radius about 10mm but the average punter would do well at twice that. bow saws are brilliant tools but generally speaking are meant to be used two handed, anyone that doesnt lay two hands on em might be fibbing, though of course there is always that certain thing/ technique where you could say you did it one handed..i'm just pointing out the basic differences between coping saws and bow saws is all, coping saw is quick and solely one handed operation, a good bow saw technique will use two hands (on handles pref but maybe one on frame), the whole saw is slightly more unwieldy. for thier purpose of sawing curves though they are brilliant and excel e.g for sawing the curves scollops in skirting or cornices for bookcases or wall units and many other applications of curve work..where say one might use a western type hand saw designed for curve work (table saw etc) a bow saw can overlap that sort of work and do it much better as well as do finer curves, personally i think the bow saw popularity may have come to be (from a western trademans pov) from being able to do, and bridge the gap where western curve saws didn't do so well at the tight curves


frame saws are the next size up when it comes to bow-saws and its really a matter (of what they look like or their purpose) of blade type suited to the job and frame size equally, in some cases blades can be interchanged for different applications. in Adelaide we see a fair few old bow saws, more particularly larger frame saws, perhaps more than the other states (?), South Aust not being a convict state and settled by non criminals and a fair percentage of germans and europeans migrants in the early days, so there are still communities in the Adelaide hills and up to the Barrossa Valley that have that culture, on any given day you could walk into a second hand shop and find frame saws or into a touristy place with some bloke making something and he will be using European tools. dont get me wrong i love em to bits but i usually draw the line at the larger frame saws and prefer western type (normal) hand saws, no doubt to my old boss pleasure but the other mentor i had was ,old, mean Rolf, from germany, a master carpenter (he shoved that down my neck whenever i gave him lip) whom enjoyed making me do things over until perfect, perfection was only acceptable to him,,i still hear his thick accented dam voice, "you australians carpenters are ROUGH, you rush too much, thats not acceptable, you would never work in Germany, do it again!" on and on that guy went, drove me friggin NUTS! i'd look to my boss hoping for some reprieve from the 'do it again' but he was reluctant (i thought he might have been scared of the old german himself) to go against him, or maybe he just enjoyed me copping it, me and my boss used to have many a competition about who was more accurate, perfect with fitting ...anyways not to bag old mean Rolf too much i actually have fond memories of him, he did teach me some stuff that was out of the norm, i NEVER do stuff twice, get it right the first time if at all humanly possible and i played some fantastic practical jokes on that guy that made his heart stop, so i figure i got the better end of it




cheers
chippy

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

....


Back to the topic . The original question was are there any good coping saws. I guess from your comments and those of others the answer is "no." Consequently you have made up your own saws. which are a cross between the traditional bow saw and the coping saw. I researched the terms and came up with the following pix.

This was as more for my enlightenment than others.

Regards
Paul

i think maybe the posts are a bit skewed one way (the made bow saws are very nicely done after all) , perhaps leaving the coping saw with undeserved bad reps, nothing wrong with using the small bow saws if thats your liking but nothing wrong with using a coping saw either, in fact its traditionally the tool for the job (DT waste removal), get one that doenst fall apart (and many fit the bill) and you will do fine, none of these saws will 'guarantee' perfect cuts along the line, so finish off with a chisel, or become practised at not!

i dont mind joking around about how useless coping saws are, particularly when i was an early on first year apprentice, it was hard to get them to follow a line! we used to get sawdust and aquadere glue mix and fill the joins (didnt have putty, thats for painters) before the boss could see and hope we got away with it...but it wasnt the saws fault, really, its just a short learning curve to do it properly...the hooks on a coping saw are handy to direct the angle but it can also work against you, but its the same for most of the small frame/bow saws, they all have that adjustment and flex to the thin blade.

if your a star with a coping saw you cut to the lines and your done, but the sensible advice is a coping saw (and any of the others for that matter, fret or bow) is not an accurate tool, leave yourself a tad of space and clean up with a sharp chisel, plane or rasp (depending on the job)

having said that i (and i'm sure many others) use an ordinary coping saw every other day to cut exactly to the line for scribes etc, even sharp 45 or 90 deg turns (they require backing up marginally), theres nothing special or prohibitive about it, takes mere moments (i dont know how long as i have never timed it). none of the turning saws give you a 'proper' finished cut (perhaps something you can live with though). so for a dovetail they work just fine, use the coping saw, they are cheap, practice a bit, staying clear of the lines and as you get better you get closer

cheers
chippy

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

in Adelaide we see a fair few old bow saws, more particularly larger frame saws, perhaps more than the other states (?), South Aust not being a convict state and settled by non criminals and a fair percentage of germans and europeans migrants in the early days,

Not having convicts and not having criminals ... two entirely different things.

Just sayin' ...

Paul

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Not having convicts and not having criminals ... two entirely different things.

Just sayin' ...

Paul

eventually, they came too, from across the border

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

......i think maybe the posts are a bit skewed one way (the made bow saws are very nicely done after all) , perhaps leaving the coping saw with undeserved bad reps, nothing wrong with using the small bow saws if thats your liking but nothing wrong with using a coping saw either, in fact its traditionally the tool for the job (DT waste removal), get one that doenst fall apart (and many fit the bill) and you will do fine, none of these saws will 'guarantee' perfect cuts along the line, so finish off with a chisel, or become practised at not!........

Agreed. If I'm one of those who seemed to bag coping saws, per se, I didn't intend to.

I used a metal-framed saw for many years, but lost my good one, & $$s being tight at the time, bought a cheapy that promptly fell to bits. Being also a bit of a slow learner, I bought another cheapy, which duly repaid me the same way... That's when I made my own. While I find it a bit nicer to use than the metal-framed variety, it's probably mostly in my mind, as I've said elsewhere, and I'm not claiming it has any intrinsic superiority (other than it has outlasted the cheap saws by 20 years, so far ).

And true, you can cut very neatly with turning blades with a modicum of practice. As a kid, I was taught to use a fretsaw by an uncle who liked making those elaborate fret-sawn boxes, and he insisted on cutting bang on the line & leaving a near-perfect surace. However, it does take practice (as it does to use any tool well), and also, it's much easier to do on thin stock. It gets harder to keep the cut both square & neat as the stock gets thicker (at least it does for me!), hence my advice to a newbie not to fuss too much about perfect cuts, unless you absolutely need it, or intend doing a lot of curvy cutting, in which case, you'll soon start improving.......

Cheers,

A Coping Saw is Best for Dovetail Waste Removal in Thick Stock

One of you should have a go at something slightly larger ...

Paul

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