Thread: D2 Plane Blades - Batch Order 02

Corrected an entry in the Spreadsheet. Thank to those members who have PM'ed me with their committed to paying, we are however still need more people to commit to get the ship sailing.

*UPDATE*

Opened the ING Super Saver Account online, but still need to post some paperwork to them. The account details should be ready by next week.

I got the confirmation email today that the ING Super Saver Account is ready for members to start depositing their share. I will PM the account name, account number, BSB etc, on Monday when I have confirmed the milling, heat treatment, grinding costs with John at Rippon Grinding.

Virtually everyone has agreed to pay now outside of three members, if we have no surprises from Rippon Grinding and the funds come in over next week, all things will be shipping smoothly very soon.

Lets

John from Rippon Grinding has confirmed the prices for the milling the primary bevel, the stress reliving, the heat treatment and, grinding and we are all confirmed up and ready to go.

I will send PM's out the banking details via DJ's Timber to all members of the Batch 02.

Batch 02 is going ahead.

Posted here so as to show the processes and decisions going on behind the scenes via PM and email

Their has been a few PM's between Bobl, m2c1Iw, and myself in regards to the floats.

The first question was about the type of steel to be used, O1 that most people have used to make their own homemade floats or S7 what Lie-Nielsen have used. In the end O1 still the preferred steel because Warren from Bohler Uddeholm and BobL suggested that O1 would be better because it has more carbon and it has tungsten in it will take hold an edge longer, and O1 can be hardened to a low Rc 54 just like S7 giving us a steel that can be filled by hand. S7 is used often in situations of blunt impact tools, rather then cutting tools, Lie-Nielsen could have just used it because it is a very common all purpose steel very much like spring steel very commonly used in the U.S. and spring steel is famously used for hand saws. A float strikes me very much as a cross between a chisel, a handplane, a handsaw, and a rasp the more I learn about it.

In other developments I spoke to John at Rippon Grinding, and I asked if he could mill the teeth into the float face for us. He says that most likely he can and that if I send him a diagram which I will do today. So that he can get me a price. This would save us allot of stuffing around, cutting and filling the teeth ourselves from scratch.

Rippon cuts the basic teeth pattern or even just the initially guiding saw cuts, then we cut out the shapes we want or even get them to do it and then clean we can clean up the teeth and drill the hole for the handles. We send it back to Rippon who heat treats it for us via Oppy Heat Treatment and grind the backs flat and we have smashing good floats with minimum of work. Both m2c1Iw and Thumbsucker would be happy for Rippon to do the grunt work if the cost is manageable.

The other thing that came up was that m2c1Iw has one Lie-Nielsen float and I asked him to measure it for us, the metal part came to 9", and we are therefore considering getting our floats cut into 9" lengths instead of 7.2" which means we would get 4 floats, not 5 from a single 39" length each. m2c1Iw is going to the Lie-Nielsen in Adelaide today and will measure up the other floats in the range for a comparison as he thinks they are all a little different in lenght, he says he will get back to me today with the results.

*EDIT*

The following sizes and floats have been suggested as they would be the most useful for plane making.

We could get 5 floats likes this:

1/8 Bed Float Push at 225 mm
1/8 Edge Float Push at 225 mm
Side Float Push at 225 mm
Small Cheek Float Push is 120 mm
Small Cheek Float Pull is 120 mm

For a flat bed float I plan on using a Bahco Pansar blade file.
The one I have is 4 mm thick, 14" long, has 9 TPI curved teeth on both sides and cuts end grain reasonably well and very smoothly. Their sides have no teeth and they also come in 13 TPI.
The downside is it cannot be resharpened, but it is as hard as a file (maybe something like RC 65?), as they are designed to file stuff as hard as mild steel. Mine is untanged, but tanged versions are available.
I have not seen these here in Australia and they do not show up anywhere on any .au websites but seem common on .UK sites. I got mine in Italy last year for around 10 Euros which is consistent with the UK prices shown on the web.

Regarding the cheek/side floats, because they are an awkward shape to hold in a mill, the sequence I plan using on my 3/16" O1 gauge plate is;
- milling the teeth onto 100 mm wide pieces of plate the plate,
- tempering the plate
- cutting the floats out to size using my water cooled metal cutting saw.
For the the 2 edge floats (push and pull), the sequence I plan using is;
- cutting the 2 floats out to size using my water cooled metal cutting saw.
- milling the teeth onto the float edges simultaneously,
- tempering the floats

Why haven't I done this already !! Good question - too many projects - too little time . . .

Cheers

Hello,

Originally Posted by BobL

For a flat bed float I plan on using a Bahco Pansar blade file.

I have used Pferd files for the same purpose, too. Some of them have tangs as well. http://www.pferdusa.com/products/201/20111/index.html

Those files are originally aimed for car body work, so very often they have convex surface cross-section (to prevent deeper scratches caused by file edges). The centerline of the file is usually about 0,5 mm higher than sides. In Pferd files, there is cross section profiles where other side is flat and the other is slightly convex.

Those tangless files are usually attached with screws to some auxiliary support/handle block. They do not take bending too much, but I would say sometimes just half-length of the file feel more practical. I snapped once one file in two pieces, and they are still very useful.

They work very well as floats for plane beds. For example there were no way I could have flattened one purpleheart plane bed without that tool.

kippis,

sumu

Originally Posted by sumu

Those files are originally aimed for car body work, so very often they have convex surface cross-section (to prevent deeper scratches caused by file edges). The centerline of the file is usually about 0,5 mm higher than sides. In Pferd files, there is cross section profiles where other side is flat and the other is slightly convex.

Yes they certainly look very similar. The Bahco one I have appears to be completely flat on both sides (certainly no more curved than 0.02 mm) although it is hard to assess because of the relatively low TPI. The lengths, and widths are the same but the thinnest Pferd is 3/16" or 4.8 mm, whereas the one I have is 4.0 mm.

Hi Bob,
is this the sort of cutter you plan to mill the floats with?


Attachment 65676

Are you going to use a Vertical mill or a Horizontal mill.
With thanks
Kevin

Originally Posted by kevjed

Hi Bob,
is this the sort of cutter you plan to mill the floats with?
Attachment 65676

I was thinking about something like a straight carbide, maybe 1/2" diameter on a vertical mill but it will depend what is around when I come to do it.

I don't know that much about milling. Do you think the cutter you showed has a specific advantage?

Bob

The advantage of this cutter is that it will cut a 60 degree included angle on the stock. This way the cutting edge, tooth face, is at 90 degrees and the triangular file mates up nicely when resharpening.
I'm just not sure if I'm going to use the vertical mill, horizontal mill or the lathe. Each have different issues will mounting the stock and cutter.
I'm back at work next week but I don't think I'll get near the machines for a week or two.
I'll post back some pics if I have any luck.
Kevin

Originally Posted by kevjed

The advantage of this cutter is that it will cut a 60 degree included angle on the stock. This way the cutting edge, tooth face, is at 90 degrees and the triangular file mates up nicely when resharpening.

Doh ! - of course - I should have thunk uf dat!
I will have to look in the tool box and see what they have.

Originally Posted by kevjed

I'm just not sure if I'm going to use the vertical mill, horizontal mill or the lathe. Each have different issues will mounting the stock and cutter.
I'm back at work next week but I don't think I'll get near the machines for a week or two.
I'll post back some pics if I have any luck.

Cool.

This post was sent to all members of batch 02 via PM

G'day All

I am glad to report that we have reached $1,834.14 which is enough pay Bohler Uddeholm for the steel.

Therefore if you have not yet paid your full share by the time you get this PM please defer payment at this time until the 30th of March when the steel arrives and we have to pay Rippon Grinding for their services.

Because so many people have not read the full thread for batch 01 and 02, here is a recap for batch O2.

• The Steel being used for the plane blades is D2 and will be milled in Sweden for us by Bohler Uddeholm.
• The D2 will be shipped from Sweden to Australia and will arrive in Australia March/April 2008. *Corrected*
• Bohler Uddeholm Australia will cut the 10 meters of D2 into 82 pieces of D2.
• Rippon Grinding will then pickup the 82 pieces D2 and will:

1. Grind a 25º OR a 30º OR a 45º primary bevel (YOU will NOT need to grind the Primary Bevel yourself as in batch 01)
2. Stress Relive to resist warping
3. Heat treatment via Oppy Heat Treatment
4. Grind the all faces flat and square

Bonus

I have decided to buy 6 mm x 6 mm x 3600 mm Brass Square and 12 mm x 4 mm x 3600 mm Brass Flats from Austral Wright Metals and give this brass to members as a free bonus to use as brass rub plates for their plane mouths, or for what ever they see fit.

I have selected two size a 6 mm x 6 mm which is just like HNT Gordon uses or for those who prefer a thiner rub plate you will have an option of 12 mm x 4 mm brass rub plates (this is the thinest I could get). If you want your share PM me back with your selection I can give you up to 320 mm in one or the other brass sizes.

Batch 02 Options

Primary Bevel Angle

The default bevel angle for the primary bevel in batch 02 is 25º. I will however be offering a 30º and a 45º primary bevel options for those members who wish a non standard configuration.

Hollow Grinding

Batch O2 will have the primary bevel ground to 25º by default for you (YOU will NOT need to grind the Primary Bevel yourself as in batch 01). Groggy has requested an option to have the blades hollow ground as well. Therefore I have made enquires to Rippon Grinding about having a hollow grinding added to the blades. For those members who cannot or do not wish to do their own hollow grind, Rippon Grinding will do it for you as an optional extra for $10 per blade. This an optional item and will not be done to your blade unless you request it via PM. Doing your own hollow grind will take 10 to 15 minutes per blade if you take your time doing it, faster with practice and a jig.

If you have any questions or suggestions please post in the Batch 02 thread or PM asap.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This email was sent to Warren at Bohler Uddeholm this email has now initiated the purchase of the D2 and O1 steel.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hello Warren

I have a slightly updated cutting list, due to discussions between members. Their has also been a slight change in quantities and types. The quantity of D2 remains the same, however their has been changes in the cutting list for the D2. The O1 we will get 2500 mm at 3 x 25 mm we will not need any cutting of the O1 as we can do that ourselves.

Material Cost

O1 - 3 mm x 25 mm x 2000 mm == $104.16
O1 - 3 mm x 25 mm x 500 mm == $25.98
D2 - 40 mm x 4 mm x 1000 mm == $87
D2 - 50 mm x 8 mm x 3000 mm == $384
D2 - 60 mm x 8 mm x 4000 mm == $528
D2 - 80 mm x 8 mm x 2000 mm == $348
-----------------------------------------------------------------
$1,477.14 + GST
-----------------------------------------------------------------

The Cut List *Updated*

The D2 - 40 mm x 4 mm x 1000 mm needs to be cut into the following lengths:

050 mm x 2
100 mm x 7
200 mm x 1

The D2 - 50 mm x 8 mm x 3000 mm needs to cut into the following lengths:

100 x 23
150 x 2
200 x 2

The D2 - 60 mm x 8 mm x 4000 mm needs to be cut into the following lengths:

100 x 16
150 x 9
200 x 4
250 x 1

The D2 - 80 mm x 8 mm x 2000 mm needs to be cut into the following lengths:

100 x 9
150 x 4
200 x 1
300 x 1

This brings the total for the cut list to 82 pieces of D2.

Cutting Cost *Updated*

82 individual lengths at $2 a cut would be $164.

Total *Updated*

$1477.14 Material Cost
$0164.00 Cutting Cost
$0164.11 GST
--------------------------------------
$1805.25
--------------------------------------

Warren can you confirm my calculations and give me an exact price for the 10 meters of D2 and the 2500 mm of O1, including the cutting cost and the GST.

Payment

All members have paid up front, and the $1805.25 is now ready for payment. I will come down to see you on Thursday to pay via eftpos and I will also pick up the O1 bars at the same time.

Hi TS,

Please put me down for a share of the 12 mm x 4 mm Brass Flats if available.

Much appreciated.

PM sent but it seemed to bounce into thin electrons or free radical ones or somethin' like that.

Cheers
Pops