Thread: Dem bones. And a hand plane .

Originally Posted by MartinCH

Hi Rob

Wishing you my thanks for putting up such a large array of photos of each step. Really get a better feel for the the process, jigging for each step, and tells a great story

Cheers

Martin

Thanks Martin.
Getting into it and taking pics to be able to show warts and all is part of the enjoyment of doing it.
Will you be trying out a plane build at some stage ?

Some of the good threads on here where Ian and David and others have put in info I may need later I save in my favorites list and go to when in need. Doing that helped me with the motivation to start a build. If I don't do that the threads I want can get lost in here.

Rob.

Yesterdays effort.

I held the body to the sole with a weight for marking out. With the Methyl Violet blueing mix I make up I added some extra shellac. I found that cleaning the metal up bright before applying is a good idea as well.
I made a marking knife up fron 3/8 band saw blade.
I just wished after I saw my marking attempt that I had only scribed once and not gone over it a few times as it was a bit sloppy.
Accurate still though as the scribe cant go where it cant go because of the brass.


IMG_5932.jpg IMG_5933a.jpg

I trimmed of the excess side material on the sole first with the band saw then cut all the pin sockets with that. I was quite surprised at the accuracy of that. It didn't need to much filing. The bottoms and specially the inside corners needed attention.
IMG_5934aa.jpg


Ive got a couple of these air pen millers which are a good thing . They take a carbide cutter. This cutter is 3mm. I should have fitted a 2 or 2.5 though.
I bored the two mortise holes with it and it got a touch sloppy, ending up wider than I wanted.
Then with a modified ground triangular small saw file I squared up the corners and sides.
IMG_5936.jpg IMG_5937.jpg

The gaps were large though, and before I marked the body to sole I had filed those brass tenons down level with the brass pins.
To the same height so it sat evenly on the sole for marking.
There was no way the remaining brass was going to fill the gaps I'd milled. What I actually had before filing wouldn't have filled them either.
IMG_5943.jpg

So I cut a couple of tabs and brazed them on for extra length. That took a few goes as I haven't brazed in a few years.
I gave up with using bronze rod and used 40% silver rod and that was easy and eventually worked.
IMG_5946.jpg IMG_5960.jpg

I filed out the extra bits on the steel sole. A little to far as it turns out. Not following Ian's previous advice I think. I raised my eyebrows knowing my mistake with this mornings advice. I now understand what I see when I look at older planes though as Ive seen the extra angled DT's before and that's the reason it happens obviously.
I also filed the extra angles on the brass sides. Not all of them appear to show though.
IMG_5961aa.jpg


So peening was going well. But I wish I had remembered what you said a while back Ian and fitted a block of steel into the internal mouth side gap. I was thinking "Oh great the mouth join can be peened closer"
IMG_5963a.jpg


The metal shifts though and the joins on the sole became a touch angled. Opening up. "Oh well." The rest went pretty good but my guess at leaving enough of those brazed tenons to peen was short on the rear one. "Oh well" again! I could possibly try and fix it? Braze maybe. I might leave it though. I wonder if angled tiny wedges driven in to be filed flat would hold?
IMG_5964a.jpg


That's it peened up as far as I can take it I thought.
I couldn't help wondering about the expert makers of old and wondering how much they must have known about all this while working away.
IMG_5969.jpg

I taped up the body and took it to the 80 grit horizontal sander to remove the excess.
The mouth started opening quickly as the sole was sanded. It needs evening up a little. Its not to bad for size atm and I'm glad I left it to tight.
Is that the trick? Leave them almost closed and the grinding of the sole sorts it on finishing up?
IMG_5974.jpg IMG_5975.jpg

IMG_5992.jpg
A few unfilled sections here ant there, and the angled mouth joins each side is the worst of it.
IMG_5994.jpg

IMG_5993.jpg

I knew I was going a little longer in the body but more careful planing would have been better.
And I'm now thinking the bridge position should have been further back a little. I cant figure out how that happened because my side scribing / calculations seemed good. Playing with blade thickness and adjusting the wedge will have to do. I'm not sure about all that atm . The bed timber has to be properly made first. And then Ill know better. It just seems the bed to bridge gap is larger than I planned. At worst the bone wedge will need to be 1 to 2 mm thicker possibly. Another "Oh well" moment. Maybe.
I can see being able to pin the bridge from the sides or fit a lever would be good a option here for that.

IMG_5995.jpg

Rob.

Good stuff Rob - this little plane is teaching you about all the potential pitfalls in one good lesson, eh?

I don't always use a spacer across the blade bed, it depends how good my fit is & how much peening will be required around that area. If I think I've got the pin extending across the mouth join nice & tight & only light peening will be necessary, I don't bother.

I think you overdid the dovetail slopes, especially on the steel sole. I could have told you (from bitter experience!) that you'd have a hard time filling those steep corners. That's the place you most often get pin-holes because it's impossible to see if you've actually filled the corners or just squashed the metal over them. I work the metal slowly into the corners, trying not to beat it down too soon, but I still get a small pin-hole occasionally. The gaps will only be a cosmetic flaw in your case, it looks to me like all of the joints are thoroughly clenched up & nothing is going to move.

For those large holes for the centre pins, I would have just driven some brass slips in either side & hammered it all down thoroughly. Using little slips of metal to fill over-large gaps is a perfectly legit technique - it must be, cos I occasionally do it. In most cases all you need to do is tap a strip into the gap, don't worry about soldering, peening will squash everything together so tightly, there won't be even a hint of the filler strip after clean-up. I tried soldering bits in on one of my very early attempts at a partially dovetailed shoulder plane & the solder lines made the repairs obvious..

As it happens, just yesterday I had to fill two over-large gaps on a little plane I was making. When fitting bent sides you need to be very careful filing pins or tails to get them to go together. It's all too easy to overdo one or two, especially at the front or back. Anyway, it happened on this one - both gaps were exactly opposite, so I'm a consistent idiot! I used a couple of strips of brass from the offcuts (it's a very good idea to use exactly the same brass or the added bit may stand out, different alloys tarnish quite differently). I cut two strips that tapped in easily, then proceeded to bang it up as per usual. I can't remember whether the gaps were at the front or the backs of the tails just behind the mouth, and I sure can't tell now! It's taken a few tries, but this is the first body I've peened up that is completely free of even the tiniest pin-hole: 1 Good peen up.jpg

It helps that it's a small one & I was using the soft H62 brass and some SS for the sole that Bushmiller gave me some years ago. I'd love to know what alloy it is because it peens beautifully and saws & files almost as easily as mild steel. I tested the plane after rough-levelling the sole, hadn't even shaped the lever-cap, but it made good shavings right off: 3 Shavings.jpg

This is the second tiny double-iron plane I've made - I made a similar one as part of my Wootha prize entry last year, but sold the set a while ago:
1a set 2.jpg

Then I sorta wished I'd kept them, so I've already made a new little shoulder plane a few months ago, & now it has a smoother to keep it company: 4 Finished.jpg

Only the little chariot plane to make now, but it will have to wait 'til I have some suitable scraps & the urge to file yet more metal.

I know, I'm a hopeless case.....

Cheers,

Morning Rob, and an apology. I was tired & brain-fogged when I posted last night, I started rambling & lost the point of what I meant to say! :doh:

All I really wanted to do was show the dovetails on the little plane as viewed from the sole, but it turned into a bit of an idle gloat about my new plane instead: 1 Good peen up.jpg.

....the point being there was no slope at all on the outer edges of the brass before I started peening. The evident slope on the sole side now is all due to distortion from the steel being bashed over them.

When I started making planes, I would file a distinct, even chamfer on the tails: Tail chamfered.jpg

But over time I realised that I was making unnecessary extra work for myself in filling the large gaps & if any tails were not a close fit, it took forever to coax enough steel over to fill the void and a deep chamfer as well.

So over time, I have reduced the chamfer & now make them so they begin in the corners about the same as what's on the tail in the pic above, and taper to nothing towards the outer edge: DT chamfers.jpg

If you are using a malleable brass, the steel will easily squash it into a distinct taper. Even with the hard 385 brass you will get a slope, not as much as with the softer brass, but still more than enough to lock the joint very firmly: Sole.jpg

So my advice these days is to go easey with chamfers on the tails. I've done some experimenting with different sized chamfers & was surprised by how much effort it takes to bust a chamfer-less D/T if it's well peened. For sure, it takes a bit less than a heavily-chamfered example, but they are solid enough that 4 or 5 of them per side will hold any plane together quite adequately!
:)
Cheers,
Ian

Originally Posted by auscab

Will you be trying out a plane build at some stage ?

Rob.

Hi Rob

When I am involved with machining its all lasers, CNC mills/lathes/ EDM machine and surfacing machines. My metal bandsaws and mill with its DRO, powered bed and so and so on and powered bed doesn't get a look in. But I have very little familiarity with hand techniques, so it pretty cool seeing how metals is manipulated with hand techniques.

As for plane making might one day fiddle with making a skew combination plane loosely based on the 46 with depth adjustment and some serious reworking of nicker design and ajustment. Nickers on hardwood are a challenge. I can get my planes to work transversely but I tend to to cut pressing down the nicker twice and then let the blade cut. Otherwise find too much chance of chip out or sloping edges. The method works but ........

Nicker design concepts include trying saw blades, the older rod single bevel step, on mount that provides adjustable depth thumb screw and some consideration to adjustment to suit alignment with edge of blade.

There will be alot of failures, if I try this. Failure defined as, not better than existing.



Cheers

Originally Posted by MartinCH

[FONT=Verdana]

Hi Rob

When I am involved with machining its all lasers, CNC mills/lathes/ EDM machine and surfacing machines. My metal bandsaws and mill with its DRO, powered bed and so and so on and powered bed doesn't get a look in. But I have very little familiarity with hand techniques, so it pretty cool seeing how metals is manipulated with hand techniques.

Sounds like some nice machinery to have access to Martin. Some may come in handy for a bit of plane making for you.

Rob.

Originally Posted by IanW

Morning Rob, and an apology. I was tired & brain-fogged when I posted last night, I started rambling & lost the point of what I meant to say!

All I really wanted to do was show the dovetails on the little plane as viewed from the sole, but it turned into a bit of an idle gloat about my new plane instead: 1 Good peen up.jpg.

....the point being there was no slope at all on the outer edges of the brass before I started peening. The evident slope on the sole side now is all due to distortion from the steel being bashed over them.

When I started making planes, I would file a distinct, even chamfer on the tails: Tail chamfered.jpg

But over time I realised that I was making unnecessary extra work for myself in filling the large gaps & if any tails were not a close fit, it took forever to coax enough steel over to fill the void and a deep chamfer as well.

So over time, I have reduced the chamfer & now make them so they begin in the corners about the same as what's on the tail in the pic above, and taper to nothing towards the outer edge: DT chamfers.jpg

If you are using a malleable brass, the steel will easily squash it into a distinct taper. Even with the hard 385 brass you will get a slope, not as much as with the softer brass, but still more than enough to lock the joint very firmly: Sole.jpg

So my advice these days is to go easey with chamfers on the tails. I've done some experimenting with different sized chamfers & was surprised by how much effort it takes to bust a chamfer-less D/T if it's well peened. For sure, it takes a bit less than a heavily-chamfered example, but they are solid enough that 4 or 5 of them per side will hold any plane together quite adequately!

Cheers,
Ian

Thanks for the tips again Ian. That curved sided body is nice.
I'm looking forward to finishing my plane and the blade is next.
I caught some sort of bug though and have been to sick to go into the workshop. Just starting to come good after a very crook week. I will be doing that blade soon. I'm really keen to try out the next level of hardening and tempering with heated oil, and the kitchen oven for temper. Compared to how I used to do it. All in two steps at the forge or gas torch quite quickly.



Rob

Rob

I have a mill and multiple metal bandsaws. But this is support equipment for making repairs or maybe a couple of parts. Mills are ok, but there's a fair amount of setup - tramming in clamps and take take 15 mins or more running back and forth with dial indicator and then one needs to careful with RPM cut depth and everything secure. Wears chips cutters rapidly if your wrong and that adds up, quick.

If its really complicated and times available the parts are made at the machines shops with the CNC gear and guys and girls who do this all day long, on a machine that self calibrates and runs at higher tolerance again. That were I am involved with the gear.

Machine surfacing the Kunz scraper (another post) would have taken longer on the mill. Have to figure out how to clamp it, check level with an indicator. Change from a standard chuck to a surfacing arbor and install the bit . Then mill it and hope everything is secure and nothing slips or chips in the process.
Then put the machine back to the default drilling setup....

Or push the plane on a high grit sheet of sandpaper on sheet of float glass for 40 minutes or so. Perhaps ultimately not as accurate but less chance of catastrophic error.