Thread: A Dovetail Marker Batch

[quote=thumbsucker;783357]I have been thinking about Ian who suggested that 1/7 (8.13º), 1/8 (7.15º), and 1/9 (6.35º) are not dissimilar enough with only 1.78º between them so as to not warrant having all of them.

It has been niggling at me, about possible better combinations.

Here is a breakdown of some ratios with corresponding angles.

1/3 (18.43º)
1/4 (14.04º)
1/5 (11.31º)
1/6 (9.46º)
1/7 (8.13º)
1/8 (7.15)
1/9 (6.35)

Some combinations that come to mind are:

• 1/6 and 1/8 Dovetail Gauge
• Saddle Square

OR

• 1/4 and 1/5 Dovetail Gauge
• 1/6 and 1/8 Dovetail Gauge
• Saddle Square

OR we forget the ratios and go for simpler and orderly angles. The advantage with using increments of degrees is that simplifies everything and we can space the progression to optimum effect. Can most people tell a 9.46º dovetail from 10º dovetail.

• 16º and 14º Dovetail Gauge
• 12º and 10º Dovetail Gauge
• 08º and 06º Dovetail Gauge
• Saddle Square

OR

• 14º and 12º Dovetail Gauge
• 10º and 08º Dovetail Gauge
• Saddle Square

I would be happy with the last option consisting of 14º, 12º, 10º, and 8º gauges as it gives a nice spread and a lower price point.[/quote]May I suggest that forgetting about the ratios is not a good idea.

The ratios 1:4, 1:6, 1:8, etc are what they are because they can be easily set out using a square and ruler
It's degrees that are hard to set out.

14° (which is near enough to 1:4) is what's used on many dovetail router bits, hence the justification for it's inclusion

I like the 3 gauge combination:
1/4 and 1/5 Dovetail Gauge
1/6 and 1/8 Dovetail Gauge
Saddle Square


Now as I understand the situation, the number of gauges in a batch is driven by the how many stems can be cut from the brass bar used for the stem.
BUT the cost of a batch is driven by the machining costs which are near enough the same regardless of how high and wide the brass bar is.
so don't skimp on the brass to save fifty cents, go with what feels right in the hand.

In terms of "sales" maybe you should offer the gauges individually, with preference going to those taking a 2 or 3 gauge set


lastly, the low risk option is to have the machinest drill and tap for and supply the bolt.
That way if there's any problems with the countersink shoulder, hole size or the tapped threads it's the machinest's problem not yours.
You or the end purchaser might still assemble the gauges.



ian

We allocate the gauges individually using ratios:

• 1/6 and 1/8 Dovetail Gauge (the most useful combination used by the majority of people, most of the time.)
• 1/4 and 1/5 Dovetail Gauge
• 1/6 and 1/7 Dovetail Gauge
• 1/8 and 1/9 Dovetail Gauge
• Saddle Square

People choose the ratios they want and they do not get stuck with ratios they do not need or want.

The hardwood / softwood ratios thing is one of these woodworking myths, and has little substance in history refer to my earlier post.

Originally Posted by thumbsucker

Chris Schwartz has a good account of all the angles used in history and he finds little precidance in classical text's for the softwood versus hardwood view. Historically aesthetics was the driver for angle selection more so then the material used. You can read more hear on his blog This blog entry is the whole reason why I started drawing these dovetail markers.

Originally Posted by ian

I like the 3 gauge combination:
1/4 and 1/5 Dovetail Gauge
1/6 and 1/8 Dovetail Gauge
Saddle Square

It would be the most useful combination.

Originally Posted by ian

Now as I understand the situation, the number of gauges in a batch is driven by the how many stems can be cut from the brass bar used for the stem.

Exactly!

Originally Posted by ian

BUT the cost of a batch is driven by the machining costs which are near enough the same regardless of how high and wide the brass bar is.
so don't skimp on the brass to save fifty cents, go with what feels right in the hand.

Agreed

Originally Posted by ian

In terms of "sales" maybe you should offer the gauges individually, with preference going to those taking a 2 or 3 gauge set.

That is why I am thinking of overing a single gauge with the 1/6 and 1/8 on a single gauge, as this is what most people will use 99% of the time. With an optional 1/4, 1/5 , and Saddle Square gauges.

Originally Posted by ian

The low risk option is to have the machinest drill and tap for and supply the bolt. That way if there's any problems with the countersink shoulder, hole size or the tapped threads it's the machinest's problem not yours.
You or the end purchaser might still assemble the gauges.

Agreed I would like to have zero to do with the manufacturing of the gauges. I just want the finished product.

I would like to offer an observation on the ease of use of the dovetail markers.
Over the period that this thread has been running I have thought hard about the 25mm thick square column, and I think that it will be overkill for what we need. Further, it will be 150% heavier than a 10mm column and also clumsier to use. If the column is reduced to 10mm, there is the added bonus of the money saved on each marker.
Here is LN's offering for what it is worth:


Just my 2c worth.
SG

Happy to go with "1/6 and 1/8 Dovetail Gauge" and saddle square, on individual basis.

Put me down for 3 - saddle square, 1:6/1;7, 1:8/1:9

Like any good designer, I am making a model of the dovetail marker, instead of guessing. I have settled on a 25 x 20 mm for the column, anything less then 20 mm and the market loses the width surface area sufficient to comfortable rest the tips of my fingers to come to rest on, more then 20 mm brings no added tactile benefit. I may consider making the column 55 mm long instead of 50 mm as at 55 mm my pinky comes to rest comfortable at the bottom right hand corner of the column, at 50 mm the hand has to pinch just that little to get a grip.

Will post photos when complete.

I have average sized hands.

[QUOTE=thumbsucker;783386]jmk89 The problem with 1/7, 1/8, and 1/9 is that there is 1.43º between the lot of them making them almost indistinguishable to the naked eye over the small distance of 5 - 20 mm that most dovetails will cover. I do not think they are worth the cost of a dedicated dovetail gauge, to have all three. That is why a suggested the increments by degree's, 8º, 10º, 12º, and 14º. As a way to maximizes the value of gauge..
QUOTE]

TS

I poke my head in the the thread every now-and-then out of interest. I have not been following all. But this decision to create your own angles is one that deserves comment.

There is nothing "wrong" with doing so. However it is not traditional and some may react negatively to that. As a matter of interest, have you cut many dovetails, and in more than one ratio, and with differing degrees of thickness? The ratios may not appear to differ much when you calculate them as you have, but in reality they stand out, especially with thicker or thinner pins.

The second objection I have to altering tradition is that some may wish to mix hand- and machine cut angles. Even machine cut do so at traditional angles.

Here are ratios 1:5, 6, 7, 8



Regards from Perth

Derek

G'day TS,

I have not been following this thread closely enough. I guess the original options are no longer valid.

Please put me down for the following gauges,
1/6 and 1/7 Dovetail Gauge
1/8 and 1/9 Dovetail Gauge
Saddle Square

Cheers

GUNN

I have decided to not proceeded with the dovetail markers. I am not able at this time to dedicate the effort to such an enterprise.

Originally Posted by thumbsucker

I have decided to not proceeded with the dovetail markers. I am not able at this time to dedicate the effort to such an enterprise.

Hi TS,

Sorry to hear that. The amount of effort required to get something like this off the ground
is more time and organization than I can imagine.

Thanks for the attempt.

If the project is resurrected later, then a lot of ground work has already been done.

Regards
Ray.

Originally Posted by thumbsucker

I have decided to not proceeded with the dovetail markers. I am not able at this time to dedicate the effort to such an enterprise.

I understand

but thanks for the attempt


ian

I can't imagine where you find the time to do all these things TS. The discussion was interesting with different views and ideas. We excercised our collective grey matter, all is not lost. Thanks for your efforts.

prozac

TS,

Thanks for the attempt. Greatly appreciate the selfless effort. I have learned a great deal about Dovetail ratios/degrees and the different materials from this thread.

Cheers

GUNN