Ebay Droppings Thread.

[Alkahestic]

So I may take some heat for this as it is not eBay but rather Jim Bodes tool listings. Seeing as how I just sold a 4 1/2 for $20, perhaps I should've sent it to Jim instead. USD150 for a Carter 4 1/2. It has a broken horn and I'm pretty sure the hex bolt used in the knob isn't standard either (but I'm not a Carter expert, I just have poor expectations after handling 3 Carter products).

[ian]

So I may take some heat for this as it is not eBay but rather Jim Bodes tool listings. Seeing as how I just sold a 4 1/2 for $20, perhaps I should've sent it to Jim instead. USD150 for a Carter 4 1/2. It has a broken horn and I'm pretty sure the hex bolt used in the knob isn't standard either (but I'm not a Carter expert, I just have poor expectations after handling 3 Carter products).

I wouldn't worry about taking flak because a Jim Bode listing is not "as listed on eBay"


What you need to remember is that Jim is located in the US where Australian made planes are an oddity and accordingly, fetch prices somewhat above what might be more common in Australia.

Carter was an Australian maker who, as I understand the company's history, jumped into the post WW2 tool void and made a range of cast iron plane like products of variable quality. Some were quite good, some were all right, some responded to experienced fettling, and some were outright horrors.

[Bushmiller]

Also remember that Jim Bode is a dealer in antique tools. He is not inclined to "give" anything away. The dealers, rightly or wrongly, command premium prices. Martin J Donnelly is another such dealer that comes to mind.

Martin J. Donnelly Antique Tools (mjdtools.com)

Don't expect too many bargains.

Regards
Paul

[Chief Tiff]

Some were quite good, some were all right, some responded to experienced fettling, and some were outright horrors.

I would say a few were adequate; about half could be made adequate by varying degrees of fettling (depending on the fettler's knowledge, skills and available time) and ALL of the rest were outright horrors. I've never handled any model of Carter plane that wouldn't be out-performed by the cheapest and nastiest offering from India; even a I have a number 6 where the sole is actually twisted, and a 54 with a fence that's not even remotely parallel with the skates in the vertical plane. For some reason neither plane has shown a great deal of use..... You can only use a Carter iron in them as a Stanley or Record iron will flex and chatter appallingly; technically you could use a good thick Hock HSS blade but that would be the tool equivalent on putting a race-tuned V8 into a Holden Gemini with budget tyres.

The only plane I despise more than a Carter is a McConnell.....!

[ian]

I would say a few were adequate; about half could be made adequate by varying degrees of fettling (depending on the fettler's knowledge, skills and available time) and ALL of the rest were outright horrors. I've never handled any model of Carter plane that wouldn't be out-performed by the cheapest and nastiest offering from India; even a I have a number 6 where the sole is actually twisted, and a 54 with a fence that's not even remotely parallel with the skates in the vertical plane. For some reason neither plane has shown a great deal of use..... You can only use a Carter iron in them as a Stanley or Record iron will flex and chatter appallingly; technically you could use a good thick Hock HSS blade but that would be the tool equivalent on putting a race-tuned V8 into a Holden Gemini with budget tyres.

The only plane I despise more than a Carter is a McConnell.....!

given your recommendation, I think the only reason I'd want to see or handle a McConnell plane is as part of a historical collection of Australian plane makers

[IanW]

Well, hope springs eternal....

I guess rarity makes up for lack of other qualities....

Is McConnell's no-frills design utterly without merit, Chief? Ya gotta concede that he has reduced the metal hand plane to about as basic as it could ever get. Does it have a chip-breaker, or is it a 'single iron' plane? I reckon you could make it work with a bit of patience & fiddling. I know, I know, you are going to come back with "Why bother?"....

Cheers,

[Alkahestic]

HTPAA has a page on McConnell for anyone interested with a drawing of the plane. Looks like single iron. The part about these being from WW2 makes sense - imports and material might have neccessitated a frugal approach. Still can't imagine how they'd work any better than a wooden plane if iron was in short supply.

[IanW]

......a drawing of the plane. Looks like single iron......

Yes, I looked at that article before, and the drawing certainly shows nothing more than a cutter, so we'll assume it's correct. I think it's a safe bet 'cos the plane is meant to be super-basic.

......The part about these being from WW2 makes sense - imports and material might have neccessitated a frugal approach. Still can't imagine how they'd work any better than a wooden plane if iron was in short supply.

Indeed, I think his intention was to supply a "handyman" style plane that wouldn't bust the tool budget. I read an article on the plane, discussing the concept, but it was a couple of years ago, & I can't remember where it was, now. In fact I'd completely forgotten about the McConnell plane until the Chief brought it up.

As you say, a wooden-bodied plane would make even more sense if you were saving on steel, but wooden planes don't seem to have been very popular with carpenters in our country. Knocking the rough off sawn Eucalypt veranda posts & the like is pretty tough on a wooden sole, & I can see that there would be some appeal in even a crude metal-soled plane for such jobs. As is often said, a plane is just a jig for holding a cutter at a fixed angle. My main concern with the McConnell design is the single bolt holding the rather thin-looking blade blade in the centre, with no way to apply some extra pressure just above the cutting edge. If the blade was good & thick, like the re-purposed tapered blade my old pot used in his home-made depression era jack plane, it does work, though certainly not as well as a lever-cap does. It's not obvious in the pic, but the blade is much thicker than the McConnell blade appears to be, but it's still not as solid as I would want a blade to be:
1 Old jack.jpg

My curiosity is piqued, I'd love to get my hands on one of these unloved & unlovely little beasts for an hour or two just to se what they can actually do.....

Cheers,

[Chief Tiff]

Still can't imagine how they'd work any better than a wooden plane if iron was in short supply.

You’ve hit the nail on the head; the reason I can’t stand them isn’t so much as to whether or not they’d work as how they are constantly being held up as an example of how Aussie ingenuity was able to produce a working plane under austere wartime restrictions. My personal view is that these pieces of junk represent one man’s ability to gain a lucrative wartime manufacturing license.

Let’s look at the way these are made; only two sizes were offered (a smoother and a jack) and were either of riveted construction (early models) or arc-welded together. All steel construction with an extremely simple wooden pieces. Now; to make one you need two pieces of 1/4” steel plate for the soles; a length of 1/8” steel plate for the frog & handle; two pieces of 3/8” square bar to join the sole pieces; assorted rivets; a bit of 12g wire and a 1/4” bolt. To make them all go together you need a guillotine to cut the pieces, a brake press or folding machine to make the handle; a drill press to accurately drill all the holes and a tap to form the thread for the blade retaining screw. Finally it takes reasonably skilled labour to set up and use these machines and assemble the plane. And all this under wartime restrictions on materials, labour and tooling.
Now; how quickly, how easily, how much cheaply and how less reliant on restricted materials, labour and tooling would simple laminated wooden planes have been? And how much simpler would they have been to adapt to different sizes? Only the iron would have needed to be supplied; and I deliberately didn’t include that item in the McConnell materials list! Oh, and how would the best McConnel plane ever made perform head to head with an exceedingly average woody? I doubt there would be much in it.

Nah; the reason I hate them so much is because I don’t believe their existence would have been possible without pockets various being lined; and yet they held in such high regard.

[IanW]

.......Now; how quickly, how easily, how much cheaply and how less reliant on restricted materials, labour and tooling would simple laminated wooden planes have been? And how much simpler would they have been to adapt to different sizes? Only the iron would have needed to be supplied; and I deliberately didn’t include that item in the McConnell materials list! Oh, and how would the best McConnel plane ever made perform head to head with an exceedingly average woody? I doubt there would be much in it.....

All undeniable, Chief, & sounds totally rational, but there are a couple of "buts" as I see it. One would have been the apparent reluctance of chippies to use wooden planes as I said. My old pot was a pretty competent woodworker & I doubt he would have had the slightest problem making himself a wooden-bodied plane had he wished. But instead he went to considerable bother to make a plane that is probably (edit: undoubtedly) inferior to a good double-iron woody for fine work. He would've expended a good deal more effort hacksawing out the shape from the rather hefty channel iron & making a mouth & he had no welding skills back then & would have had his cousin in the sugar-mill do the assembly for him (said cousin wasn't a welder either, as evidenced by the quality of the welds).

The other 'but' is that there were only protein-based glues generally available at the time, so any laminated woody would have had to come with a prominent warning about getting it wet!

.......the reason I hate them so much is because I don’t believe their existence would have been possible without pockets various being lined; and yet they held in such high regard.

Aaah, now we are getting to the nub of the matter! Judging by what I've read of the chap, he was certainly an entrepreneur and given to self-promotion, but corruption is another matter - perhaps we should just say that he had the gift of the gab & was able to talk his "design" up sufficiently...

Cheers,

[GraemeCook]

... Aaah, now we are getting to the nub of the matter! Judging by what I've read of the chap, he was certainly an entrepreneur and given to self-promotion, but corruption is another matter - perhaps we should just say that he had the gift of the gab & was able to talk his "design" up sufficiently...

...

Isn't that called marketing?

[clear out]

Bit late in on this but I might have a McConnel somewhere in the stash.
It might even be a copy
Anyhu if I can find it, happy for anyone so inclined to play with it.

Speaking of plane making during WW11 my father (a fitter and turner) made my uncle a joiner a Norris replica, I don’t really know any more than this.
My cousin may still have it.
My father worked at Lithgow Small Arms and I think the uncle may have been at Cocko Docko.
Uncle later burned all his moulding planes ‘cause they had worm in them.
He gave me a 444 later when I was working for Stanley.
H.

[jimhanna]

The title for this could be one of several:

1. You get what you pay for
2. If it looks too good etc
3. "Direct" from China via a third country

I was browsing ebay with a few woodworking terms when I came across a listing
for some squares, dispatched from China to the UK. They description seemed good
"Double Square, Aluminum Alloy Die-Casting Carpenter Square"
and the pictures looked reasonable. I liked the idea of the second pin to index
the rule to the slide for accurate marking out in the notches.

listing.jpg listing2.jpg listing3.jpg listing4.jpg


It was also very cheap.


Arrived today.


received1.jpg received2.jpg
The seller omitted to mention that the body is now some sort of plastic and the
index pin for the notches has been dropped.
Out of the box it is square but a plastic body doesn't suggest
long term accuracy as the blade supports wear.


The only redeeming feature is that it was free. I followed the Speedpak tracking
online and it seemed to travel from China to the UK in reasonable time (about 10 days)
but then no further updates appeared. I got my money back from the ebay no-show process after the stated delivery time had passed. At least I don't have the hassle of returning it for a refund and can just bin it.


One other oddity was that Speedpak tracking info said left China, arrived UK with no mention of an intermediate country. The package which was eventually delivered to me had a German post office sticker over the Speedpak label.
This item was low-cost and wouldn't attract any Customs interest, more expensive items from China to the UK might run into problems with Customs paperwork if they're being sent via the EU.

[Bushmiller]

Jimhanna

Your experience echoes a similar one to me:

Accurate Drill Locator - No (woodworkforums.com)

I would be interested to know the company that sold it. There are several companies that seem to be offering your product, my product and a few others that would appeal to woodworkers. the common theme is that they appear nicely made of aluminium and are very reminiscent of the Woodpecker tools to the extent that some of their videos or gifs will even show the Woodpecker brand.

Good to know you are not out of pocket.

Regards
Paul

[IanW]

There is a moral in your story, Jim, but not sure what it is. "You get what you pay for" doesn't seem appropriate here since a) you ended up not paying, & b) you got even less than you thought you'd paid for! Maybe the one about, "if it seems to be too good to be true......." is a better fit?

I'm a very nervous on-line shopper, and only very occasionally go that route but have still managed to get bitten once. It seemed like a mob like Ali Baba, selling a very wide range of stuff from tools to fashion, they had half a page of blurb about their business ethics & returns policy, but it was all a complete fake. The site was taken down soon after my 'experience', but goodness knows how many people got stung while it lasted. I did learn a couple of lessons, one is to be very wary when the pictures used to display the item are poor-quality pixelated images cut & pasted from a genuine site, the other is to google the name of the site & see what you find. I did that after I realised I'd been had & found there were plenty of warnings about them!

Live & learn.......

Cheers,