Thread: Eclipse Saw Set

Originally Posted by pmcgee

I'd like to collect info from people who have actually broken teeth themselves ... or seen it happen.
I wonder about the causes. Maybe it is more technique than metalurgy?

I'm sure I have heard the Sandvik in the sun story with Disston named also.

In my case it wasn't a Sandvik, but cannot remember what the actual breed was. I was given the sun story, tried it, but after a couple of days in the hot sun, teeth still broke. This all happened back in the days when my ignorance was even greater than it is now - I had not heard of 'zero set' saws then, so didn't know that that might have been one, let alone how I might determine the fact....

Originally Posted by pmcgee

....."Something (old) I read pretty recently was suggesting that two small taps to set was better than one press in the pliers. (I could be wrong - it could have been you Ian talking about how to use the plier-set properly)"

Nope, not me......

As far as I'm concerned, brittle is brittle - the second tap is just to make sure that if it's going to break, it does....

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Regarding the consistency I have a few different thoughts.
One - maybe you get consistent, similarly to the filing part.
Two - my brain entertains the possibility that some inconsistency might not be a bad thing, in the same way that hand-filed rasps are improved by human inconsistency. But it could be that we are naturally horribly inconsistent (unhelpful) and that our inconsistency is only an advantage when we are just 1% away from a machine-like consistency. I don't know the answer - it is one reason I have bought some professionally filed and setup saws to study and learn from.
The third possibility is that maybe they *didn't* do that good a job. (heresy?)

Most heresies are just stating the obvious truth when others are afraid to speak up... I'd say all of the above...

To judge by the number of poorly sharpened old saws you encounter, there have always been plenty of ham-fisted sharpeners about. OTH, I have had saws hand-done by pros, and they were practically perfect - you would be flat out finding a variation more than fractions of a thou between any teeth. Never underestimate the incredible abilities of the much-practised hand!

I read somewhere (an old FWW, I think) that a poorly-sharpened saw can still cut well enough - again, I can vouch for that - some of my early efforts would struggle to be classified as "poor" (you can probably think of much better descriptors.... ), but by & large they cut - some even moderately well. Some inconsistency may be inevitable for those of us who don't sharpen saws all day every day, and it isn't necessarily fatal, but I would doubt it could be 'desirable'. Some types of inconsistency are worse than others (an even set is highly desired, by me!), but after a few goes, most of us can make a saw do a reasonable job of cutting quickly & in a straight line. So don't be put off by a few failures - I still have occasional days when I just don't seem to be in the mood or something, & the results are not up to standard - having to re-joint and re-sharpen is usually enough punishment to make me either pay attention to what I'm doing, or put it aside & come back later!

In my father's day, I recall most tradesmen around us doing their own sharpening, simply because there were few, if any professional saw sharpeners in our neck of the woods. Like with any activity, some were naturally good at it & got better, others just didn't have the ability (or the interest?) to do other than make 'em work (just). I know I would've kept at it until I got it right if I were earning my living with hand saws - it makes such a difference to your quality of (working) life having any tool perform at its best!

Cheers,

A set gives an abrupt, very small radius bend, while bending with a hammer over an anvil gives a larger radius. Of course this depends on what you use and how you use it. It is generally thought that hammer-setting is less likely to break teeth.
Swaging is also used on the rakers of one and two man crosscut saws, to widen them to almost the width of the kerf.
I don't like the idea of wresting two teeth at once, they tend to bend at the bottom of the gullet and could lead to cracking.
This is an interesting thread.

Toby

Originally Posted by TobyC

A set gives an abrupt, very small radius bend, while bending with a hammer over an anvil gives a larger radius. Of course this depends on what you use and how you use it. It is generally thought that hammer-setting is less likely to break teeth.....

Just about any tool performs according to "what you use & how you use it", for sure! Can I suggest that the soft anvils on most saw sets ensures the edge of the chamfer soon becomes rounded over, and coupled with the spring-tensioned clamp & plunger arrangement, you are unlikely to get a particularly sharp bend. On my Eclipses, I note the hammer is ground at a slightly more acute angle than the anvil chamfer. I hadn't thought about it before, but it has just struck me that this may be to alleviate the very problem we are discussing, by ensuring that most of the 'push' is at the tip of the tooth, giving a more gradual bend?

I have only struck a problem with a couple of saws in my entire life, & I think I would have had a problem with them whatever method I used, particularly now I realise I was a chronic over-setter. If it worried you unduly, I'm sure a gentle pass or two with a file over the edge of the anvil would produce a nice fine round-over, and reduce that problem considerably. I have far more problem with the occasional poor placement of the hammer so that it hits half-on, half-off the tooth, which can cause a marked distortion of the tooth. I suspect I would have a worse problem with hammer setting, at least for the first 25 years or so..

I'm not against exploring better methods for fettling any tool, but I think that the majority of amateurs reading this forum would be better advised sticking with the pliers type sets to begin their saw sharpening careers. With a modicum of care & attention, you can achieve a pretty tolerable (& repeatable!) result after a small amount of practice. I'd concentrate initially on the rest of the sharpening process, which is a little more challenging and has such a combination of variables that it can take a few years at least to sort out what works best for your saws and your conditions.

One thing we should keep in mind when reading saw blogs and saw advice from the northern hemisphere is that they are all talking about very different woods from Eucalypts and our tougher species. If these are your regular fare, you probably need to ease off on the amount of set & increase negative rake for comfortable sawing compared with saws set up for typical northern hardwoods.

Chers,