Thread: Everything old is new again

DSEL, I have the same reservations about filing guides and I think there are good reasons you don't see too may old ones. As you suggest, the guides on the vises were probably much too slow & cumbersome for experienced sharpeners, so they would have ordered them without, or soon ditched them. As for the angle guides like the Veritas, they were probably never a raging success way back, because most people sharpening saws were so practised they didn't need them, & I would be surprised if many were sold.

I don't think Veritas make any claims that their filing guide is novel. I'm currently evaluating one for review, but circumstances are conspiring to make this possibly the slowest evaluation on record! I admit to having mixed feelings about this little gadget. For years I have gotten by happily with a stick, cost $0, other than a few seconds making a new one when it gets loose, or a new file won't fit. So I would have asked why bother paying 40 bucks for something I can have for nothing? Well, the Veritas does have a couple of things going for it. It is convenient, being quickly & simply set for any rake angle or any fleam angle desired, and fits a very wide range of files easily. It's relatively light, but does add a bit of weight to the other end of the file, which I find I like because it balances the file quite nicely.

The main 'con' so far is that teeny little hex key required for locking the file in. It will go AWOL for sure, at some point, so I hope it's an easily-replaced item!

In summary, I quite like it, but I wouldn't say it's an essential bit of kit for everyone. For someone like myself cutting lots of new teeth, or re-forming old ones, it's very handy. For the bloke who has a few saws & sharpens once a year or less frequently, stick with the stick.....

Cheers,

Ian, if you are doing a review, check the angles on your guide agains an proper engineers protractor etc. They have know to be out by a significant amount for their designed purpose. Those that are out have, I believe been replaced upon request to the manufacturer.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

Ian, if you are doing a review, check the angles on your guide agains an proper engineers protractor etc. They have know to be out by a significant amount for their designed purpose. Those that are out have, I believe been replaced upon request to the manufacturer.

DSEL, thanks for the heads-up. I should do that, for a review, of course. Actually, this is one of those things that should worry only obsessives, because the angles for rake & fleam are pretty loose, & a couple of degrees either way wouldn't have too much effect on function (especially fleam angles). I always treat markings on gadgets like these as nothing more than marks so that I can reset them to positions I've found 'right' for the various saw teeth. Because you have to judge that the guide stays level & square as you go along, this is likely a greater source of error, particularly when you are new to saw-sharpening.

Forgot to mention above that on larger teeth, I use guides only if making new ones from scratch, or doing a heavy re-form on teeth that are severely out of whack. I find a guide can be helpful even for sharpening on very small teeth (18 tpi or more) because it is harder to feel that the file is sitting properly in the gullet.

Cheers,

Well I decided to make my own. It is a bit rough, could do with a sand and a polish. Still it took me 8hrs to get it this far and I still have to make the wooden thumb hold.

File Guide1.jpgFile Guide2.jpgFile Guide3.jpgFile Guide4.jpgFile Guide5.jpg

Waydergo!

Much more sophisticated than a stick!

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Waydergo!

Much more sophisticated than a stick!

Cheers,

Thanks Ian…..Do you want me to send it to you for a comparison in the review lol.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

...Blackburn Tools about 6x the Veritas...

It's expensive, but I don't think it's quite that much more.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

When will Disston Saw Vices with filling guides come back with reproduction?? Why are the filling guides always missing? Were they removed because they weren't effective???

I think Ian answered that one pretty well. The guides that restrict movement are slower to use and can be a little cumbersome to set up. Angle guides don't restrict any movement, but magnify and quantify the angles that you set them to.


Good start on the guide. I assume the rake angle is set by rotating the file holder inside of the hex body. How do you lock that in place?

Originally Posted by Isaac S

It's expensive, but I don't think it's quite that much more.

I Stand corrected, I thought the Rakemaker II was going to come in over $200. It is only $95USD or $105USD with the level attachment and as I said earlier I think if you were going buy one is the better quality item, also better looking. When you consider I already have 8hrs into mine and still have a few more to do that starts to look appealing.

Anyway I my point wasn't on the value of these items. There are plenty of reviews going on, not sure when Ian's is coming out. My point was just using this item as an example of how people who claim to have an interest in old fashioned tools and skills really aren't educating themselves on how things were done, and what was used other than purely following the writing in magazines and a few blogs. A lot of these writings also are purely on the basis of opinion of how the writer thinks it was done.

So much history and skill has been lost along with the reasons why.

Good start on the guide. I assume the rake angle is set by rotating the file holder inside of the hex body. How do you lock that in place?

The brass holder and stainless steel sleeve are one piece and yes they rotate in the hex body. The rotation is locked with the long brass screw up the guts from the opposite end.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

......My point was just using this item as an example of how people who claim to have an interest in old fashioned tools and skills really aren't educating themselves on how things were done, and what was used other than purely following the writing in magazines and a few blogs. A lot of these writings also are purely on the basis of opinion of how the writer thinks it was done.....

DSEL, I think there are a number of ways of looking at this. As a person who has gained a little bit of skill from a lifetime of mucking about with tools, plus a bit of a Scrooge mentality, I can understand why you might question the need for tools like a filing guide. My first reaction on seeing it was 'why would I waste $$s I could spend on other shiny stuff when a stick will do the job adequately?!'. Someone who has served time as a saw maker or sawdoc can probably re-tooth or cut new teeth without any extras, but after a few years of moderately busy saw making, I am far from that level, and do need some help. So it's either a stick, which costs me nothing but a few seconds of time, or one of these more elaborate metal gadgets. While the end result for me isn't much different, the Veritas is actually easier to set up, and a bit easier to use than a stick. It's also more comfortable, which I appreciate very much after I've toothed several saws in a row.

Another way of looking at it is that neither of the filing guides is all that expensive compared with a set of 'boutique' tools, of which there are many out there. Owners of a Lie-Nielsen plane are happy to shell out for sets of expensive masonry to sharpen their blades, so what's different about sharpening saws? If a filing guide that works reasonably well encourages people to launch into the arcane world of saw sharpening, that seems like a good thing, to me. Pretty soon, they'll gain confidence and start fooling about with rake & fleam angles (which the guides make relatively easy to do), and experiencing all sorts of pleasures (and occasional frustrations ) they never imagined saws could provide. In no time at all, they will be thinking for themselves, perhaps re-discovering some of the old skills, and discovering that not everything written about saws, either in the 'old days', or now, is necessarily fact.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

......There are plenty of reviews going on, not sure when Ian's is coming out.....

I'm not sure either! I meant to get it done this month, but other things got in the way, & now I won't be able to get back to it for at least 6 weeks. I've been procrastinating, I admit, partly because I was wondering exactly what I should say about it (probably much the same as I've written above!). As I've said already, I can see advantages for people like myself, but not everyone makes or sharpens saws by the dozen, so I am still wondering how essential it would be for the general woodie who wants to sharpen a few hand saws. Discussions like this are very helpful in getting my thoughts together, and I would appreciate hearing from anyone else who has an opinion, be they a beginner who feels something like this might help them, or those who think it utterly superfluous (with reasons, of course)......

Cheers,

Cheers,

Ian one thing the filing guide does do if nothing else is provide a safer and more comfortable way to hold the file especially if it is a fine sharp pointed jewellers' file.
As has been recommended for fine TPI dovetail saws etc. This could be of benefit even to the pros. Unless they have serious calluses from years of filling.

I wonder if the weight helps balance the file, although this could also require re learning to experienced fillers. Not sure what the Veritas is made of. Mine being almost totally brass has some weight. The original appears to have been steel, and the Rakemaker is brass, stainless, and wood. This would also work in reverse with once you learned using the guide, if you felt confident it was no longer necessary it would still require new muscle memory to file without the added weight.

Being able to repeatably set the angles especially if you do multiple rakes & fleam for various saws has to at least be able to give some percentage of benefit to accuracy. You should be holding the file your hands in the same way buy using this if nothing else.

I made mine as starting my first saw I didn't see anyway to know what angles I was going to be making the cuts at other than checking the tooth after I had made it. I feel the guide should at least start me off correctly and guide me through the process and help keep consistency.


The benefits may vary though the progressive experience levels of the user but there possibly are benefits for all levels.

As compared to the stick. Well hopefully if you don't loose it, or have it "borrowed", it should last a lifetime, and you only need one for all angles, all files, and you don't have to keep making a new one.



One of the forum members JKM89 has one of the original versions from the early 1900s maybe he would be able to provide some comment on user experience.



Once I finish mine and had used it a bit I could respond better but you should have got your review finished by then. If your doing a general review rather than a brand specific review you should talk to Isaac about including the Rakemaker II in the review and then have it at the workshop for demonstration.

Nice work Dale,

Nicely made and looks good!

I think it's easier to align from the near side ( like your guide does ) rather than the block of wood on the far side, I use a small brass bar in a hole in the handle to get the rake, but yours would be great for fleam as well.

Must be getting close to the time when you'll give it a test run? Hint...

Regards
Ray

I made the little wood handle today and as I was doing the final sanding the darn thing split. I tried to glue it up but lost a splinter/slither. I gueess I should have expected it I made it from old weathered Tassie Oak which once I started turning had some checks in it.

Oh well live & learn. Have to find some better wood and try again.

Must be getting close to the time when you'll give it a test run? Hint...

I have borrowed a saw vice, and Tuesday is set aside to take a crack at sharpening my two old saws, following that hopefully I will feel confident enough to make a blade from scratch.

I have already ordered Isaac's Rakemaker II and am looking forward to seeing it arrive in the post. I am also keen to see Ian's version - I am a fan of home made jigs and fixtures and love seeing what people have come up with when left to their own devices

Ian, have you got any more progress pictures?

Thanks,

Craig

Originally Posted by Morbius

I have already ordered Isaac's Rakemaker II and am looking forward to seeing it arrive in the post. I am also keen to see Ian's version - I am a fan of home made jigs and fixtures and love seeing what people have come up with when left to their own devices

Ian, have you got any more progress pictures?

Thanks,

Craig

Craig, I think you've confused me & DSEL74. He's the one making his own filing guide - my home-made filing guides were nothing more than a short piece of wood with a hole drilled in the middle, to jamb a file in. I was thinking about making one for myself, but it was a very slow gestation, because I wasn't convinced it was something I desperately needed. I now have a Veritas guide, which I got as a gift, so any thoughts of making my own have vaporised for the moment.

After using the Veritas a bit, I am becoming quite fond of it - it does what the stick does, but a bit more conveniently, is more comfortable to hold, and easier to set to a predetermined angle than a stick. I have now chucked out all those little sticks that I used to save & throw in the file draw - they were getting to be a nuisance, anyway....

Cheers,