Thread: Fettling Junk

How about a gun amnesty in this thread?
Cheers,
Jim

Making Chips, what a great many overseas people don't realise is that Australian hardwoods will very quickly sort out the junk from the rest when it comes to hand planes. Sure, there are cranky grains etc all over the world, but it's far more common to have difficult timbers to plane here, in fact it's commonplace.

What I'm saying is that your Groz that works very well for your current purpose may well meet it's match (or not) on a piece of Spotted Gum et al.

As far as marketing something for more than its true cost so that the buyers feel better about it - well, more fool them (buyers). However, I make the point that tools should not be sold in a sub-standard condition if they are easily fixed, simply because too many either don't know that it can be improved, or don't have the skills or tools to do so. A classic case of this is the Lie Nielsen Floats that don't come properly sharp, and this is apparently deliberate (AFAIK it states as much). WHAT THE??? Why not fer cryin' out loud? For the asking price, the simplicity of the tool and the quality of the components it should damn well come sharp!

Marketing spin has a lot to answer for. In Australia, and no doubt the USA, our cars that are built here come out as a new model every 18 months (approx) and the difference between one model to the next is a change of tail light shape, grill shape and that's about it. Every 7-8 years they actually bring out a new model. It's bloody ridiculous, a waste of money and resources, and reeks of most things that are wrong with a consumer based society, and we largely have the American marketeers to thank for that (that's not a shot at you).


Coming back to tools, for that is what this thread is about, I've done my time with Chinese crap, and a few years ago I swore that unless I had to, I would no longer buy potential rubbish. I caved in on this about a year ago, and purchased a Chinese "HSS" forstner from Carbatec, as it was the only one available in the size I needed. What I didn't realise at the time is that "HSS" has been misinterpreted by the Chinese to mean "Highly Suspicious Shight". I gave the bit, along with some others, to the local Men's Shed (a community shed system we have here). My 3rd Millenium Stanley #5 piece of shight will go along the same path very soon (same as yours Old Gunnie). It will be replaced by an HNT Gordon that I know will work straight out of the box, as ALL tools should.(i.e. work to their best perfomance out of the box).

A cabinet maker worth his salt would not sell (say) a chest of drawers, where the drawers stick at a certain point, and then include a slip of paper that says "you will need to sand back the runners in order for them to work properly, because I couldn't be bothered doing it". It seems that the Chinese and Indian manufacturers (and plenty of others) think that this IS the way to market their mass produced tools, except they don't have the honesty to say so (i.e. suggest improvements).

The whole concept of manufacturing cheap goods out of the bare minimum thickness etc of materials is going to bite the whole world on the bum eventually - resources will become too expensive.

I could go on, but that'll do....for the moment

Hey! No it won't....discussions on guns are abhorrent to me. Yeah, yeah, I know it's a sport. However, it was invented as a killing weapon pure and simple.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

A cabinet maker worth his salt would not sell (say) a chest of drawers, where the drawers stick at a certain point, and then include a slip of paper that says "you will need to sand back the runners in order for them to work properly, because I couldn't be bothered doing it". It seems that the Chinese and Indian manufacturers (and plenty of others) think that this IS the way to market their mass produced tools, except they don't have the honesty to say so (i.e. suggest improvements).

I completely, completely agree on this point.
It floors me that they are shipping these products dull as a butterknife.

It took upwards of an hour with abrasive paper to first work out the tool marks and get to a decent bevel, then waterstones before I arrived at an edge. At that point it was perfectly adequate; the edge held as well as any other plane I own and it cut flawlessly, but I agree it's utterly absurd that they're shipping blades in this condition. There is no doubt whatsoever this bad strategy is contributing to the sentiments some people have about these tools.

I'm new to this forum but I've prowled around the woodworking world since I was a tike. One thing I've learned, as an avid buyer of second hand and vintage tools, is that the knowledge of how to properly sharpen a bladed tool apparently registers somewhere between rocket science and brain surgery, out there in the world. For the hundreds of chisels I've purchased over the years at yard sales, flea markets, eBay and various second hand sources, I think I could count on one hand the ones that didn't arrive looking like they had been sharpened by monkeys on rocks. Knowing this, I agree that shipping cutting tools with dull blades is a marketing disaster since it seems that knowing how to put a razors edge on a plane iron is a dying skill.

For goodness sake, the average wage of a factory worker in India is somewhere around $3 a day.
Take on a few men, sit them down with honing guides and 120 oxide paper and make sure no blade leaves the factory with toolmarks, and that they're all sharp enough to turn a curl. If the consumer wants it 'Ninja Sharp', he can take it from there but at least out of the box, please deliver a working tool.

The whole concept of manufacturing cheap goods out of the bare minimum thickness etc of materials is going to bite the whole world on the bum eventually - resources will become too expensive.

Worth pointing out that the Groz block plane itself is built like a tank. It earns valid criticism for shipping with a dull blade and we 'tool guys' tend a bit obsessive about flawless soles (that certainly exceeds what's practical and relevant), but I don't think anyone would ever accuse it of being thinly built. If you are opposed to firearms, it would certainlly break a skull, if needed

Originally Posted by MakingChips

If you are opposed to firearms, it would certainlly break a skull, if needed

It's the noise Chips
Cheers,
Jim

A few years ago I had a couple of hours conversation with two production engineers when we were in transit in Singapore
The Irish engineer was returning from Vietnam where the stainless steel piping was being prefabricated for a power station in NZ - the company had quickly got the Vietnamese company up to a welding standard that he described as world leading class - the cost of the first rejections had emphasised the quality required and any more rejections would come out of their profit.
The other engineer was Chinese and had been at one of their production facilities in Thailand - there are international trading agreements which apparently make it worthwhile to produce in developing countries-
In discussion of the apparent lack of quality in many small electrical goods (his speciality) his answer was simply that if the customer wanted a Rolls-Royce to sell at Toyota prices they will cut corners but if you gave them enough money to provide a vehicle to compete at Lexus prices they can provide a far higher quality standard
I think that the couple of wood river planes I have indicate this as it seems that the retailers have been willing to provide enough funds to allow a decent product to be provided

Neil

Originally Posted by brontehls

I think that the couple of wood river planes I have indicate this as it seems that the retailers have been willing to provide enough funds to allow a decent product to be provided

And that is the WHOLE point Neil. The Chinese (and no doubt Indian) manufacturers can produce qulaity stuff when they are given specifications to work to rather than a budget. I don't blame the manufacturers for the rubbish - it's those that commission it, and I don't believe that cheap shight is what the market wants. So that would bring it all back to marketing. I have a deep suspicion that we Aussies are the recipients of far more rubbish than the rest of the world, because we are so close, and have strong trading ties with China. The rubbish gets a go because we have to pay ridiculous prices for quality compared to the rest of the world, and that IS NOT because we have a small population.

Consider this - how well would the cheap(ish) Chinese machinery that is forced upon us go in the US market (at the same price). It would fail in a matter of months. USA woodworkers would be apalled at the prices we pay here for the same things (Woodpeckers et al). There have been numerous discussions on this, and I don't intend to resurrect them.

The only exception that I have come across is Lie Nielsen planes - as far as i can see you wouldn't save much, if anything by buying from the USA compared to here. As for the rest: a point I have made numerous times is that if, as an individual, I can bring a product in from the States at retail price, paying one-off freight prices, for far far less than the retail price here, how can a retailer justify charging anywhere between 170% to 300%, when they are purchasing at wholesale prices and using bulk freight prices? GST is only 10% of that obscene margin, and if the goods are made in the USA then there are no duties applicable. It's exactly the same marketing mentality as the outrageous prices charged for alcohol on tourist islands, and they stipulate that you can't bring your own. "We've got a captive market here - a great opportunity to gouge them - let's go for it".

Originally Posted by MakingChips

This speaks precisely to my point.

Springfield Armory realized what a gem the gun was, as did everyone who bought it as the HS2000, or paid attention to anyone who owned an HS2000. The truth was out there. HS2000talk.com ran for quite some time. Whether or not one was receptive to the truth was dependent on whether or not they were a self-learner, or made their decisions on the basis of association.

The opportunity to buy it at $249 was there for anyone, but people tend to be very illogical about their consumer decisions and use associative cues rather than employ their non-existent capacity for reason, logic and objective decision making.

What Springfield Armory brought to the table was something called "marketing", which is shorthand for stepping in to fill the gap dumb people have when it comes to their ability to formulate an accurate opinion about a product. Marketing has nothing to do with the product in your hand but everything to do with providing a story about that product (which may or may not be true) that first persuades the consumer to buy it and secondly, allows them to feel good about their purchase.

The whole reason 'marketing' exists as a discipline is because manufacturers realize that when Western consumers buy a product, they're doing so for a whole host of unintelligent reasons that aren't always associated with the actual product itself. This isn't unique to American consumers, but we're definitely leaders of the pack, as far as this brand of idiocy goes... and yes, people caught up in this pitfall of logic will defend it.

As far as Groz planes selling in Aus, have you ever tried one?
If the Croatian military placed an order for them, would you feel more comfortable buying one?

well i havnt used one, but i just went and had a look at one to see what all the fuss was about, and the fit and finish is pretty ordinary, you can tell as soon as you handle it, that is to say not very nice if you are accustomed to LN, clifton, older stanley or even compared to the new Stanley when it comes to that, which seem to get a pretty bad rap but in reality its good compared to groz, i happen to have a small square with me as well, didn't have a longer straight edge but the sides were out of square by more than half a mm, makes it pretty bad or could legit be called junk by some i reckon, i put it down fairly quickly as it seemed obvious, if i kept looking for faults i am sure i could have found them.
however the price is pretty good at around $50 for a number 4, which is a bargain from a retail store when you think about it (as a matter of norm they usually put at least 100% on stock nowadays to cover overheads, in the ol days it used to be 50%), compared to a new stanley and heaps cheaper than LN which costs about $350 here in Oz, from a distributor, not really a retail store in the normal sense we are used to...so you could say that the LN costs 7 times what the Groz does...whether the LN is 7 times better is subjective and a matter of opinion, but surely there cant be any argument that it is better (overall), if that is taken as true then its simply a matter of whether one should pay that much more for a 'quality' product, its always been true (generally speaking, even though you might find the odd product that goes against the tide- due to clever marketing) that you pay large increases in money for small gains. take photography for example, basic canon lens does a fine job job but ask for one of their higher end lenses that has a higher F rating and makes a picture with slightly nicer out of focus area (bokeh) and you will pay 7 or ten times the price easy, then of course there are the generic companies that copy some of those lenses and they are cheaper but dont always produce exactly the quality result, sometime they do if thats the case then your on a winner

guns are a curious thing to buy, with the intention of finding a bargain, for the sake of $200 or so for a handgun i would be inclined to buy the 'name' brand item because one would hope the companies reputation is at stake and have done the testing to be sure its safe (works), the last thing i want is a gun stuffing up as i fire it ,visions of daffy duck with his feathers blown off and bill on the other side of his face come to mind..besides how many handguns does a person need (i used to have just one of each type of hand or long gun)...guns used to be popular here in Oz (mainly rifles or shotguns though) but over the last decade or two/three their about as popular as someone smoking in a restaurant, times change, it used to be fun, me and my mates would go out shooting for the weekend just 20 min up the raod, nowadays its just not worth the hassle, ppl freak out if you have a gun, hardly anywhere you can shoot without the star force (cops) being called, going to a gun range is to me like smokers being sent out to an outside room in winter, times change, i had always liked the idea of shooting with my boys (to pass on the good times)but we just do other things now instead, they think of me (my stories) as a relic, shooting lol and dont seem to miss the idea ..besides now that i have gotten old i dont think i enjoy killing all the bunnies, roos, goats and pigs etc that we used to (edit; now i see that FF has commented on guns as well..see i told ya lol, not that popular here in Oz )

anyways, i dont disagree with you outright, the marketing point you make is valid and has been well worth making, its something that americans are at the forefront of as you say and is practically a religion if not a skill that has been honed over many years..having said that relabelling has been going on for centuries and since the early 1900's has been a common place marketing tool, sometimes a name company has sold its wares without brand name attached to sell through distributors and other times it has been from whatever country at the time that had lower labour cost (e.g east germany, russia and i remember when Japanese stuff here used to be called jap crap but as the years went on to have a Tv or something else made in Japan is/was considered a quality product in comparison to something from taiwan). i can go down the street now and buy a royal enfield motorbike for around 10-12 grand (if i imported much cheaper) that is made in the way that the poms used to make them back in the 50's, trouble is they are made with old plant left behind by the poms and the people making them arnt ness as skilled and the machinery is worn out, the motorbikes have all the same problems (and more) that the old pommy bikes had with oil leaks an more. sturmey archer bicycle hubs were as good as could be (still work well 50-80 years on) and an old one still usually works as good as when it was made but the new ones coming out of india are apparently made with the same old plant that is wearing/worn out, the repots are is that the new ones have significant problems, and also that the workers dont have the expertise that the old ones did (naturally as they havnt been doing it as long), its not a criticism as such, i expect in years to come they will gain the experience and sooner or later be considered quite good, like the Japanese were..by this time though some other country will have cheaper labour costs worth shipping plant to them, somewhere in africa maybe, so we will be having the same discussion one day re a Ducati motor bike made in Zambia or Zimbabwe.i think its croatia that is making film for cameras now as well (good on em), not quite up to the same standard as kodak made (i have some) in their hey day but its good that someone is still suppling it

summing up; cheap tools have their place, even as a tradesman and employer they can be useful, i have (had) several kits of tools (some for private use, some that anyone can use, some for on site and some for in the workshop), some are tools that are used on site and by different ppl and i dont feel inclined to buy them all nice tools to use or lose, whilst its good to have nice tools sometimes its not worth it, you only need something that will do the job no more(if it doesnt then its crap), it doesnt matter how pretty it is because half the time i would paint it with bright colour paint anyway (hate losing tools-even worse hate having them pinched!)..i might consider the groz for very basic work (not fine work) and for employes to use but i wouldn't buy it for my own personal kit....

cheers
chippy

My favourite marketing related tidbit ... possibly from the show 'Madmen' ...

How to double your shampoo sales?

"Rinse and repeat."

and how to sell more toothpaste? Make the hole bigger!

Cheers All
OG

Originally Posted by Old gunnie

and how to sell more toothpaste? Make the hole bigger!

Cheers All
OG

and make the lid impossible to get back on..


Madmen, what a great show that is/was havnt seen it ages! used to crack me up