Thread: Fettling Junk

that reminds me my washing machine does need fettling! its decades old and hardly ever breaks down, when it does its easy to fix but the stupid thing occasionally tears holes in towels and undies , got a mate that has repaired washing machines all his life and like he says the trouble with new are they arnt as easy to fix yourself (circuit boards everywhere) and are made to only last a short time and basically disposable at some point (pretty early on) not worth repairing

anyway i hear what your saying, i try not to worry about it though, some tools are junk but its always been that way, i always hated using friends or family tools that were made i dont know where, old black and decker junk and who knows what else but for the handyman they seem to choose this cheap stuff in preference to buying expensive quality tools, even if they have been informed about the difference, which is understandable in some cases as they get very moderate use and their expectations of quality of work is often low. i'm more offended by the sales-people trying to convince you that they are good instead of giving honest evaluations, obviously they have vested interests though and have a job to do, it does erk me though when i happen to be standing within earshot of a sales person giving poor advice to an unsuspecting customer

handyman and consumer grade tools have always been around though, even decent quality stanley tools of old and many of the other brands all benefited from fettling, they more or less worked out the box but for better quality work you still needed to get rid of the machine marks, chisels and blades have always needed a polish to work better, nowdays there are a couple of ppl making chisels and such where the backs are said to be near mirror finish and flat but you pay extra for them doing the work

cheers
chippy

I guess the market for tools - in this case handplanes - is so wide. It ranges from the very serious genteman woodworker (although I do not know any ) through to the guy who needs to use the tool once only. The serious guys do not want the handyman versions, and the handyman does not wish to pay what the serious guy accepts as "pay for what you get". Somewhere in between we get those who have enough knowledge to be choosy and enough skill and enthusiasm to renovate an older classic.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Tut Derek, I'm always serious, I'm a gentleman and I sometimes work with wood
I got stung many years ago with a Stanley Handyman plane. We finally gave up on it trying to fettle it and passed it on to someone who liked the look of it. It's still on a shelf somewhere and I hope it's never brought down.
Cheers,
Jim

Originally Posted by chook

I have just read a thread on Groz hand planes and the many adventures of those who have parted with the cash to get one. Well this got me thinking and I realised that we wood working chaps must seem like very odd creatures to the rest of the world. Consider this imaginary story.

"I needed a washing machine so I went to the shop and bought one. When I got it home it rattled and leaked water everywhere. The clothes came out dirty. So I decided that all it needed was fettling. After all it was $50 cheaper than the other brand. I took it apart and re-wired the motor. The mounts for the spinner were not square to the frame and so I ground them off and welded them on again in a new position. Finally, I got some silicon sealer and plugged a few leaks. Now after a week of tuning up my new washing machine, it works okay. I can get most of the dirt out of my undies, I learned a lot about washing machines and I saved a few dollars. Would I recommend it? Well not to an inexperienced domestic servant, but if you are prepared to do a bit of fiddling with it then it can be a good buy."

Now seriously if something is rubbish and you do it up then you have a piece of refurbished rubbish. Suppliers should not sell it and we should not buy it. As a case in point a relative of mine who is just getting into wood working has just returned from a trip to the local hardware store. He bought his first set of tools. I can be sure that over the next period of time he will spend more effort and thought trying to work around the deficiencies of the stuff he got than actually making anything.

None of this says anything about getting hold of older, good quality tools and restoring them. There is all the world of difference between taking an old, quality tool and bringing it back its original health and trying to work around the failings of a bit of junk.

The problem is, your narrative is completely incorrect.
They are not junk.

Lets characterize it with a more apt analogy... Lets say that there were three washing machines for sale.

One cost $69, brand new. It was imported from Korea. The mechanical, chassis and frame were all solid, but it used some questionable seals. Upon replacing said seals (a few hours work, $3 expense), it was quickly learned that the overall machine was exceptional. Solid, washed the clothes perfectly clean, lasted forever and boy, what a fantastic savings for a great washing machine for those able/willing to do a little work!

Now, lets say there is another washing machine. It's essentially the same as the first machine, only without the need to replace the $3 worth of seals and spend the three hours. This machine costs $499, but nothing needs to be done.

The third and final machine is created by Swiss artisans in the rarefied air of Geneva. Each individual gear is polished by specially trained Dwarfs whose fingers are individually vetted for a perfect fit. The knobs are crafted from finely turned sterling, capped with Brazilian rosewood. Each part is precisely heat-treated by immolating €20 notes and holding the components over the open flame until the fingertips are singed. It is then assembled by degreed engineers, subsequently blessed by a series of multi-denominational clerics, crated in a carbon fiber container buffered with the finest Irish wool and shipped overland by mule train alongside a contingent of Gurkha warriors guarding its every step. This one costs $12,999.

If your objective is to wasch your shirt, which do you buy?

Keep in mind- the people who paid thirteen grand for the Swiss machine have all manner of elaborate reasons why theirs is a better purchase and they are quite quick to make that case; about how 'fine' a job it does, how soft their clothes are and how their capacities for discernment are just so refined, they couldn't possibly live with anything else! They will strongly imply that they are somehow 'better' or 'more accomplished' than you, on the basis of their having spent thirteen grand on a washing machine.

Marketers make money by convincing (mostly dumb) consumers that the product they're selling possesses rarefied properties that necessitates an extremely high price. They're leveraging some old (albeit credible, at one time) sentiments about nation of origin and quality to persuade people that certain dynamics are a prerequisite to 'quality'.

They also make direct plays to ego and do everything in their power to associate their product with ones sense of self worth. Egomaniacs or men of weak and fragile character are very vulnerable to 'high end marketing' since they're more likely to define themselves on the basis of what they own, rather than what they're capable of doing. It's why there are plenty of people who are terrible guitar players, but they own $15,000 acoustic guitars or men who are essentially worthless as woodworkers, yet own a whole battery of 'strictly' LN tools and wouldn't accept anything else.

I'm too much of an engineer to escape the cost/benefit rubric. It's just how I'm wired.
On this basis, I'm totally cool getting 95% of the way 'there' for $17, when the costs associated with getting 99% there are $80, and 100% is $379.

As the old Soviet saying goes... "Good enough is best".

UGH I just typed a huge reply that said something about being "approved by a moderator", not this post goes right through, so I guess that one is lost. Bummer.

Cliff notes: What you characterize as "junk" isn't accurate.

Your mentality is what keeps profit margins wide and marketers in business.

Originally Posted by MakingChips

UGH I just typed a huge reply that said something about being "approved by a moderator", not this post goes right through, so I guess that one is lost. Bummer.

Cliff notes: What you characterize as "junk" isn't accurate.

Your mentality is what keeps profit margins wide and marketers in business.

Junk is a subjective term, so it may well be accurate in the mind of the OP for the tools (not)doing their intended job

is this thread only about handplanes? i thought the OP commented on a relative bringing a 'set' of woodworking tools home with difficulties

to use another analogy i have used some peoples cheap as chips combination squares (some not so cheap as well) and they arnt square at all so they dont do the intended job, its pretty easy to throw them down in disgust and call them junk, legitimately! of course you can easily fettle a combination square as well to be accurate but many ppl either dont think of it or dont know how to do it, ppl usually expect something to work out of the box, if it doesnt then they are probably entitled to be annoyed and call it junk (should people have to know how to fettle a plane or square to use it?)


profit margins; hard to comment, so many variables, some companies get things made where labour is cheap, some dont so their costs are higher, naturally the margin will be higher as well

marketing; its true also that some companies charge what many people think is excessive for some tools (i am not saying all are, prob a few are though-each person can make their own mind up). the companies have reputations promoted stealthily by other people on the internet, utube, blogs, forums or even Face book now i hear, its another form of marketing thats commonly utilised nowadays but one that shouldn't be allowed without the person declaring their own interest in the company or product, its only a matter of time i think before these people will be required to by law or face legal action for endorsements veiled as reviews or other positive comments on the internet. same thing used to happen on radio not so long ago (at least here) but now radio commentators are required by law to disclose their interests if they have a relationship with the company..people dont have a problem with them if they do so, they just want the honesty is all

Originally Posted by MakingChips

The problem is, your narrative is completely incorrect.
They are not junk.

Lets characterize it with a more apt analogy...


Lets say that there were three washing machines for sale.

One cost $69, brand new. It was imported from Korea. The mechanical, chassis and frame were all solid, but it used some questionable seals. Upon replacing said seals (a few hours work, $3 expense), it was quickly learned that the overall machine was exceptional. Solid, washed the clothes perfectly clean, lasted forever.

Now, lets say there is another washing machine. It's essentially the same as the first machine, only without the need to replace the $3 worth of seals and spend the three hours. This machine costs $499.

The third and final machine is created by Swiss artisans in the rarefied air of Genava. Each individual gear is polished by specially trained Dwarfs whose fingers are individually vetted for a perfect fit. The knobs are crafted from finely turned sterling, capped with Brazilian rosewood. Each part is heat-treated by immolating €20 euro notes and holding the components over the open flame until the fingertips are singed. It is then assembled by degreed engineers, blessed by a series of multi-denominational clerics, crated in a carbon fiber container buffered with the finest Irish wool and shipped overland by mule train alongside a contingent of Gurkha warriors guarding its every step. This one costs $12,999.

If your objective is to watch your shirt, which do you buy?


.

huh, this post wasnt there before, just appeared,

anyway, no question, i want the washing made by dwarfs (how cool is that!)and people with engineering degrees, blessed by clerics and with sterling silver knobs inlayed with brazilian rosewood (thats hard to get now ya know!) and delivered by Gurkha warriors, i want a dvd with it to show my friends...in fact i am going to put it in the middle of the pool room next to the bar, great conversation piece...i mainly want it because its made by trained dwarfs though, just like santa has

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

... same thing used to happen on radio not so long ago (at least here) but now radio commentators are required by law to disclose their interests if they have a relationship with the company..people dont have a problem with them if they do so, they just want the honesty is all

Chippy, it wouldn't matter what Alan Jones said, I would have a problem with it. One of these days he's going to say something he actually thought of or wrote himself. P'raps he's waiting until the mike is off.

Having spent time in Switzerland and Korea I have affection both places but anything made by Swiss engineering dwarves is something worth saving for.

Also those dwarves have access to excellent health care, work reasonable hours and the 0 emissions factory re-plants 50 acres of rainforest for every washing machine it produces.

Hi Making Chips,great extravagent turn of phrase and wonderful word pictures,i will never regard my washing machine with the same lack of respect. you may be capable of bridging the aussie/U.S humour gap with yards to spare.by the way i fettle my collection of garage sale planes with growing confidence and love my new korean built 1.6 ltr diesel wheels, rossco

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Chippy, it wouldn't matter what Alan Jones said, I would have a problem with it. One of these days he's going to say something he actually thought of or wrote himself. P'raps he's waiting until the mike is off.

AH, good ol Alan Jones eh, i havnt heard him for years, dont think they pipe his verbals westwards over here anymore, i havnt heard him anyway, i dont miss him lol

Yes, and it's not like a thread hijack either....trying to make sense of what he screams out really is "fettling junk".

Woo ... it's quite a subject ...

(btw M-Chips ... I think being a newish poster that your msg needed an ok from a mod before landing in the thread ... hence the apparent disappearance)

Personally I like old tools ... and big cast iron machines ... but I don't think there is much mileage in attempting to judge or categorise someone who buys LN tools, or a Wenzloff saw, or an infill plane from S&S or (lordy lordy) Karl Holty.

For one thing, a good many of those people may have 'paid their dues' with other more ordinary tools - maybe for many years. They might have been working towards a given purchase for a significant amount of time.

Also I think there is an issue with the washing machine analogy. Despite what an economist might say, I don't see them as 'durable goods' ... unless there is one that is cast iron, weighs 600kg and says 'Wadkin' on the front.

I can buy, love, enjoy, appreciate and even use tools from let's say 1880 onwards with relatively little effort on my part. Some of those might be the like of a Stanley #4 or Disston #7 that were absolutely common-place ... through to a Norris plane or a wonderfully engineered, ingeniously simple post-hole drill that might have been very expensive.

If tools being made today are of an excellent quality ... and that includes some of the amazingly high-quality 'home-made' efforts produced by members of this forum ... then regardless of who buys them today ... there is a very good chance that they will be around 100 years from now and potentially available to the 'deserving poor' and 'true enthusiasts' of the future.

So while I would prefer to fix up a good $50 washer ... and the other half would insist on the $500 one ... I don't begrudge someone if they are going to dump all that dough on The Big One. I just hope it actually keeps working for 15-20 years.

That's about 5c worth.
Cheers,
Paul McGee

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Personally I like old tools ... and big cast iron machines ...

Me too.
I have more than a few working tools that are over 100 years old. Heck, I'd probably show pretty well in a "Who Has The Oldest Working Tool" contest.

Some years back, I was blending shellac flakes and found myself in need of a pestle/mortar. I didn't have one but my wife had an old cast Bronze example she picked up in Europe sitting on a living room bookshelf, so I boosted that. When she got home and saw me using it to smash shellac, her exact words were "You do know that thing is about 400 years old, correct?"

Turns out she picked it up at an antique store in Britain and it was from the middle Renaissance period. I still use it whenever I need to blend shellac, though, and just deal with her hollering later

For a period of time, I took a casual interest in hobbyist watchmaking. That's another field where there is an economic advantage to buying old-old tools, as opposed to new cheap junk or highly expensive, boutique stuff.

Still, there's no escaping that these Groz block planes are hefty, well made, sharpen up just fine and cut see-through shavings. Same goes for all manner of inexpensive tools made in the East that are perfectly adequate raw platforms for those capable of doing the refinements themselves to end up with a fully tuned, high performing working tool for very little money. Sometimes I forget that different people have different skill levels in terms of their ability to sharpen a blade, lap a sole, identify a bearing surface and know when it might need attention, etc. The idea of having to 'tune' a industrial product is just so off-putting to a certain sort, he'd rather spend 20X more and have the tuning done for him at the factory.

Are some eastern tools garbage? To be sure, yes! But some aren't. Those with a degree of critical thinking skills can usually figure out which is which. Those lacking such skills will rely on price alone. None of this even begins to address the sort of people who are hung up on 'pride of ownership' ego issues, usually associated with the need to own high end brands.