Thread: Making A Fishtail Chisel from an Old Worn faithfull friend.

Originally Posted by raffo

Thank you for the analysis Rob. You're right, it does seem like the cabinet maker went through the front of the drawers. I can see how he'd have done it. They're still half blind dovetails, though. Could it have been a German technique? It is possible, lots of immigrants in the USA, Pennsylvania had a lot of them, maybe this piece was built here in PA.

Rafael

Maybe German or maybe he was in a workshop where the boss was German. It could be anything . Its not a typical English way for 1850 to 1880 though.

They are still Half blind dovetails .
I said this.
"He probably did full through dovetails. Not an attempt at half blind and finishing the cut at the top corner even.If the veneer was removed you would see full saw cuts down the front."
I was meant to be typing that they were sawn like full through dovetails and not attempting to saw them by stopping at the line or even at the edge of the front.

Rob

Here's some pictures of the final drawer back cutting and assembly from Yesterday.

I went to marking the back dovetails on the bench.
IMG_1913a.jpg

On the backs I was cutting a little slice away to help start the saw.
Should have done that on the fronts as well but didn't think of it .
Even a full slice could have been done, from front to back would be good / better like we were shown as apprentices
IMG_1914.jpg IMG_1915.jpg
A pencil mark to help not saw the wrong part away on the band saw.
Ive done that a few times in the past.
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A depth cut with the help of the magnetic fence. Most of them I did without the fence.
Cutting away the waste.
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Saw. Slice . File.
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A Bang Bang I whipped up in 20 minutes for all the knocking together and knocking apart.
Spotted Gum head , Yellow Stringy bark handle. 2 coats of shellac so far.
IMG_1927.jpg

Ready to glue before going in for dinner on the left.
And glued up and square to dry over night. Each joint washed of glue and rubbed with sawdust to make sure there is no glue remaining and also fill any voids of course. They are getting Pine bottoms into Oak slips . And an incised bead to the fronts after fitting to the Bench / Table.
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You probably all do this . I find the most important trick to not losing my way building these is a simple marking out system.
KISS as is said.
A face mark on the drawer front. Just the number or the face edge mark and the number. Number 1 near the top. One the same on the back. The side of the back facing the front. And a (L1) left 1 and (R1) right 1 on the top front edge of the sides. Back a little so its not sawn off when cutting the DT.
Just one set of marks per piece. And the golden rule is never have second pencil marks on any piece and totally remove any wrong placed mistake pencil marks .
I couldn't count the number of mistakes made in my workshop because of simply having more than one set of marks on any part piece while building any piece of furniture.

Rob

Great write up Rob. Also love those 3 BRA radial arm saws set up in the background.

Cheers, Zac.

Originally Posted by D.W.

How did you make the business end of that one, if you don't mind saying? I'd have some ideas to forge it out like that, but wouldn't be surprised if they forge welded stuff on the old one - I put the book away and didn't look that hard. It seems like the butt welded things with glee and I'm just not as confident. I shrink the bolster onto the tang and then weld it in place rather than trying to upset the bolster and weld the tang onto it.

Hi David.
I would guess the original Bolting iron in the BS tool chest would have been started with a blank large enough to flatten then split a two prong fork at the end then draw down the shank and from the tang before folding the fork into the two directions needed and leaving it soft or annealing. Then file it from there to shape before heat treating.

Or like you say heat weld a bit on . A tricky thing to do at that size but they were very good at their trade.

Interesting your heat welding the mild steel bolsters on your chisels. Do you use Borax or just get it hot enough and it welds?

I never managed to heat weld in my forge like I have now seen done . I did it a few times but it was very rough. I watch some guys now on Instagram and YouTube using borax the correct way and I was way off playing around with it years ago.

Rob

Originally Posted by auscab

Hi David.
I would guess the original Bolting iron in the BS tool chest would have been started with a blank large enough to flatten then split a two prong fork at the end then draw down the shank and from the tang before folding the fork into the two directions needed and leaving it soft or annealing. Then file it from there to shape before heat treating.

Or like you say heat weld a bit on . A tricky thing to do at that size but they were very good at their trade.

Interesting your heat welding the mild steel bolsters on your chisels. Do you use Borax or just get it hot enough and it welds?

I never managed to heat weld in my forge like I have now seen done . I did it a few times but it was very rough. I watch some guys now on Instagram and YouTube using borax the correct way and I was way off playing around with it years ago.

Rob

I use borax, but as long as the metal is clean and isn't allowed to oxidize and prevent welding, I don't know that it's needed. I've not had luck getting the welds to set without supplemental heat (brazing torch in my case)...well, now that I'm using an induction forge, there's no need for supplemental, but propane or mapp only never got me enough heat. I recall reading that a brazing torch at the junctions was a bad idea because it could have have oxidizing heat, but didn't have an issue, probably because the flame was neutral or who knows.

I don't dry the borax as is recommended, and I've seen more than one person say they either use sand or nothing, so I guess it's just a matter of experimenting. AT the risk of telling you something you already know, it's a situation where if everything is right, you can just hold two pieces together and they will stick. I don't get adventurous with it - whatever is welding will be reasonably close fitting at the start, i'll get the heat right, set the weld with a couple of light strikes and then do additional hammering after that with progressive swiftness. The easier things go, the better the results.

if it's a fight to get the joint set, it may be set successfully, but the distortion and roughness can be a disappointment and maybe it will be structurally sound but have voids (I can't have that, but it's not like I haven't made joints that are like that).

The seaton chest book notes the weld points on the firmers (they're laminated, even though they're very thin) - they're iron to iron - i admire their skill, and the welds probably give a clue as to what the easiest way to make the chisels would be. But I'm only making all steel stuff, so it's just admiring from a distance. I'm also not reenacting, so if what I'm doing is nowhere close to how the all steel chisels were made, it doesn't matter too much.

Separately, I can't imagine successfully doing larger forge welds (or more than a couple) without a power hammer to shape after setting the weld.

I thought I may as well add the finished pictures of the drawers and the finished Island bench / work table that's leaving me tomorrow. Its been sitting for weeks under covers waiting for some other to be finished items that are leaving with it.

There are three drawers on both sides. Each set of three fronts are cut from the same board so the grain matches across the front.
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I left a little space in between for drawer stops. I like fitting drawer stops behind the drawers mostly. And a frame was made to be fitted and glued in over the drawers so kickers could stop the drawers dropping as they are pulled out.
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A picture from both sides finished.
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And the top from both angles.
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It's 2M x 1M x 900 high. With a 40mm thick top.
All in US White Oak. Except for the drawer bottoms.

Rob .

Looks great. has a classic look from the start, and substantial.

Can you give us two sentences or so on what the coloring and finish are?

Originally Posted by D.W.

Looks great. has a classic look from the start, and substantial.

Can you give us two sentences or so on what the coloring and finish are?

Sure David. The stains and colours are a mix of reaction stains . Like bleaching , Iron oxide, Potassium dichromate and what ever spirit, oil and water colours I need to get the right effect / colour. Its a bit of a Jackson Pollock sort of thing on wood. That gets sealed in with oil based poly sanding sealer. And shellac then finishes it off. Bodied up with a french polishing rubber , Oil finished and then waxed. You cant leave water sitting on it over night. You can throw a bucket of water over it after preparing or eating your meal and as long as you wipe it dry within half an hour It stands up pretty good to that. I do all my new dining tables like that and have been for the last 30 years. We used to deliver a couple of tables out a month as well as all sorts of other stuff and only got called out for polishing repairs once or twice a year . Usually because a vase has leaked while the flowers were watered. Or a newspaper was left sitting with a wet corner on top over night. The good thing about it is it looks great and traditional. And it ages and can be repaired easy if you know how to repair french polish work. Any damage is patina building . Most of my clients have had Antique furniture for years and know how to live with shellac and wax finishes.

It was a lot worse with shellac finishes years ago because for a long time through the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s everything (The Antiques) were fully restored to new looking. All original patina removed and new french polished finishes. One mark on a over restored piece and the clients were ringing up needing repairs. Which was pricey for them as it usually had to be trucked back to the workshop. This hardly ever happens with patinated aged repro furniture. I just usually say "relax and live with it and wax the piece once a year, avoid the water sitting on it over night. I can fix it if its bad enough damage" and they like that. Its a selling point.

Rob

I got a lot of practice doing this sort of thing on antiques and restoring.
Here's an original English antique side table from around 1680 on the left and the one on the right I made and matched to it for a client. Using US White Oak on the base and local grown English oak on top.

IMG_2510a.jpg IMG_2512a.jpg IMG_2511a.jpg

Rob

one of the reasons I asked other than just liking the way it looked is because the top looks like a french polish rubber, to me. something I think more people should try on general work as it looks miles better than sheer wipe on finishes that have no build, but the obligation for geometric perfection isn't there, either, and repair and touch up is easy.

I recall being advised to not use shellac as anything other than a sealer for the first several years I was woodworking (popular sentiment if you read the magazines, etc), and then just switching over to using only shellac for anything that's to look nice outside of the kitchen. Haven't regretted it.

have regretted some of the "easy" finishes that may be easy but don't look very good. As well as some WB crosslinked finishes that are OK for a while but show flaws over time in odd areas (arises, corners, etc).

Everything not painted in the kids' rooms is shellac. From the time they were babies. They are hard on stuff to some extent but the total repair time for their bookcases, etc, has been probably not even 10 minutes.

Originally Posted by auscab

I got a lot of practice doing this sort of thing on antiques and restoring.
Here's an original English antique side table from around 1680 on the left and the one on the right I made and matched to it for a client. Using US White Oak on the base and local grown English oak on top.

IMG_2510a.jpg IMG_2512a.jpg IMG_2511a.jpg

Rob

Very good match! nicely done.

Yeah, you got it pretty close Rob......

Matching an old piece like that is beyond me - I could do the woodwork ok but my colour-blindness stops me from doing that sort of finishing work.

My one success with 'matching' an old piece was a cherry bedside table for a friend (from a picture!). I took pains over the turned legs, which were more 'country' style & not very intricate & hand-turned so both original & copy have similar minor variations, but didn't try to do anything fancy with the finish, just used a long-oil varnish (I suspected something of that nature had been used on the original), and persuaded her time would do the rest. Apparently, I was right for once, it has aged quickly (as cherry does), and after 25 years or so acquired a few dings & scuffs and she tells me they are pretty much indistinguishable now - the only real difference being I got the measurements a bit wrong (the photo I worked from was slightly oblique) and mine is a few mm narrower or wider (can't remember which). I doubt the colour matching would have worked out as well with any other wood, though.

That job was before digital cameras so I don't have any pics, I must ask her to send me some sometime, so I can add it to my "portfolio"....

Cheers,

Having the original to copy off in the workshop makes things a bit easier doesn't it Ian.
US Cherry is a lovely timber. I used to use a fair bit of it. We aged it up. Over time the warmth of it on the red side made it fairly unpopular with the people I was selling to . Bleaching it gave fantastic results.
The way it ages naturally is amazing. My parents had their kitchen cabinets build from it sometime in the 1980s. It was just finished clear. The first 5 years roughly it darkened right up then the surfaces which got the most light started fading right back to a lovely colour similar to the bleached effect . Some sections of the cabinet sides had sapwood left on the boards and at first I thought that was a bit slack but now I really like it.
Our native cherry is pretty amazing as well . I had a large tree which blew over in the wind and took some of it . It split like crazy though and is only good for turning handles now. Nice wood though with an amazing smell.

Rob