Thread: " The Force " v's " Training wheels "

Originally Posted by Basilg

In my case, without Training wheels I may well have given up in frustration & never got to where I am today. Many, well regarded and successful people may also have been forced out of business because of the cost of their product.

For me training wheels are necessary. As has been pointed out by many contributors on this forum, you can't beat practice.

I see the beautiful timber that Derek uses and I would not want to stuff up a cut either. I like that different people on this forum have come up with different ways to achieve the same result. People have different learning styles.

As I am never likely to operate in a production workshop I am going to take a while before cutting mortices and dovetails becomes second nature to me.
I am going to use a router table where possible to achieve a result and gradually move to be all hand tools.

I bet the cabinet makers from the last century would have loved to have had a powered router at their disposal.
(I meant the 19th Century)

Oh, this is a subject near to my heart. I can’t help but comment.

I’m a power tool/machinery man. End of story. I have no plans of ever graduating to hand tools.
Is this wrong?
Should I look upon machinery as a tool that compensates for my inability with hand tools rather than the means by which I can produce finished goods I can enjoy and be proud of?

The expression “Training wheels” would imply this is the case.

Let me explain my background.

In my mid 20’s I had had no experience with woodworking of any kind. I was a reasonable way along my learning curve on working on cars and things mechanical but I wouldn’t have known which end of a saw to hold and a chisel was a good tool for scraping old gaskets off.

Then I started hanging around my FIL’s cabinet making shop. I helped out where I could mainly by holding things as he did his thing to them.
Bit by bit he introduced me to his various machines, starting with his Luna combination machine with sliding table.
He encouraged me to use his shop to build things for my wife and I.

I started small with a simple cupboard in chipboard for my garage and progressed from there.
Each time I brought a new project to my FIL, he inevitably said it looks like I’ll have to show you how to use something new.
In this way, I was soon setting up and using all the stuff in his shop.

I LOVED it.
I could not spend enough time over there. The feeling that “If I could imagine it – I could build it” was nothing short of exhilarating.
In fact, my wife used to accuse me of only marrying her so I could hang around with her Dad.

This gentleman and I parted company some time later but I went on by myself, ending up supporting my family as a builder of decks, pergolas etc. and at another stage as a cabinet maker. I built my own timber framed house several years ago before moving to Bendigo.

Since then, much water has passed under the bridge. My collection of machinery inc a saw table, buzzer and separate thicknesser are all stored in my storage shed in various states of disrepair and neglect. As I approach my retirement years, my dream is to have a place where I can once again have all this stuff restored and set up.
I’m a avid subscriber to the American “Shopnotes” mag. Every new edition has something I would love to build and the thought that if I had my equipment set up, I could is the extreme of frustrating. Using the buzzer and thicknesser, it wouldn’t even cost me much as I can reclaim all kinds of old timbers which would otherwise be burnt.

I am subscribed to numerous threads on this forum inc the one linked to above and one by Woodwould and another by Groggy and his magnificent workbench plus many others. Each time I’m notified of a new posting I really look forward to seeing what all of these gentleman have done now. There are not enough superlatives to describe many of the WIP’s here and I can only look on in awe of the skills being demonstrated. I particularly enjoy it when these craftsmen take to time to teach. I can’t seem to get enough.

But, do I aspire to someday building furniture at the standard shown here?
No. No way. I just want my machinery back.
Its there, that I find the enjoyment of woodworking I crave to have once more.

So I personally, don’t see my machinery as a training aid for something better. To me it’s the means by which I can produce things I can be proud of and enjoy. I can still imagine what I could build - I just want the tools back that would enable me to build it. If ever I can build my new shop, I may never come out of it.

I'm sorry if this seems a rant. Like I said earlier. It's a subject near to my heart.

Cheers
Jim

Originally Posted by Grandad-5

I'm sorry if this seems a rant. Like I said earlier. It's a subject near to my heart.

It doesn't sound like a rant Jim, It sounds to me like an enthusiast .

More power to you

TT

Why use only hand or power tools? more fun using both!

I hate to say this but in every endeavour from stamp collecting to bee sexing you get purists who insist that their way is not the best way of doing something, It's the ONLY way of doing it .

I don't see a lot of that here. My desire to use hand tools is purely "Tool Therapy". You make your mistakes a lot slower too. I don't mind using power tools though.

TT

Originally Posted by Grandad-5

I’m a power tool/machinery man. End of story. I have no plans of ever graduating to hand tools.
Is this wrong?
Should I look upon machinery as a tool that compensates for my inability with hand tools rather than the means by which I can produce finished goods I can enjoy and be proud of?

Hi Jim,

I don't believe it should be hand tools vs machinery, each has its own use.
Machinery does have the advantage that it is much faster than hand tools in many instances but the benefits of hand tools cannot be ignored, they are quieter to use and create less fine dust which can be an advantage depending on your setting.

I have seen a tendency for some woodworkers to use a power tool in all circumstances believing it to be better than hand tools. My favourite example appears in the current edition of fine woodworking magazine. The aim is to put a bevel on a curved table top, the method is to hand the tabletop over a running tablesaw on some sort of pendulum arrangement. This method may be fine if you are producing 100 tabletops per week but I think it is downright dangerous especially when the job could be easily completed with a hand tool like a spokeshave.

Regards,
Chris

Somewhere up there Grandad-5 mentioned Shopnotes magazine. It is indeed one of those magazines that has a heap of interesting stuff.

I am fortunate enough to have access to every issue (I think) from #1 January 1992 through #117 the latest, in .PDF format , with indexes to the plans, projects, tips etc contained within.


It is a huge amount of good reading material.

When it comes down to it, a nice piece of furniture is a nice piece of furniture. To the casual observer, there are few visual cues that the maker used power tools, hand tools, jigs, "training wheels" or whatever.

So, the route we take as makers comes down mainly to whatever gives us the most satisfaction and the results we're happy with. Whether you use power tools or hand tools, building a piece of furniture (or whatever) takes a pretty reasonable amount of skill (especially if you design the piece too), I don't think anything can really be classed as cheating.

There is no wrong answer.

Originally Posted by Twisted Tenon

It doesn't sound like a rant Jim, It sounds to me like an enthusiast .

Thank you that TT.

Originally Posted by Andreas87

Why use only hand or power tools? more fun using both!

I would say that's a given. The most ardent of handtool purist would still use say a bandsaw on occassion. I know I certainly use handtools regularly.

Originally Posted by Polie

I have seen a tendency for some woodworkers to use a power tool in all circumstances believing it to be better than hand tools. My favourite example appears in the current edition of fine woodworking magazine. The aim is to put a bevel on a curved table top, the method is to hand the tabletop over a running tablesaw on some sort of pendulum arrangement. This method may be fine if you are producing 100 tabletops per week but I think it is downright dangerous especially when the job could be easily completed with a hand tool like a spokeshave.

I've seen the same phomana. Today, I had cause to rip a piece of decking board down and I wanted to replace the pencil round on the cut edge.
The machinery way would be a rounding over bit in a router. Could I be bothered for 12"?
Nup, got the handplane out and a sanding block and was finished in the time it would take to find the right sized bit

Originally Posted by NZStu

When it comes down to it, a nice piece of furniture is a nice piece of furniture. To the casual observer, there are few visual cues that the maker used power tools, hand tools, jigs, "training wheels" or whatever.

So, the route we take as makers comes down mainly to whatever gives us the most satisfaction and the results we're happy with. Whether you use power tools or hand tools, building a piece of furniture (or whatever) takes a pretty reasonable amount of skill (especially if you design the piece too), I don't think anything can really be classed as cheating.

There is no wrong answer.

Couldn't agree more

Originally Posted by Avery

Somewhere up there Grandad-5 mentioned Shopnotes magazine. It is indeed one of those magazines that has a heap of interesting stuff.
I am fortunate enough to have access to every issue (I think) from #1 January 1992 through #117 the latest, in .PDF format , with indexes to the plans, projects, tips etc contained within.
It is a huge amount of good reading material.

There is some good stuff there isn't there?
My collection is about the same size.

I don't believe WW's comment had anything to do with hand tools vs power tools debate at all. If I can use the example of the Liogier hand stitched rasps video which shows a master at work (Basilg idea of 'using the force') using hand/eye skills alone and ask how did he get there? If he used 'training wheels' eg jigs, guide marks etc, eventually he had to abandon them. My guess is that sooner, rather than later is the best time to abandon them and hone your hand/eye skills. Perhaps the quality may suffer for a while, but eventually you get it. If I can relate it to something I'm learning at the moment, wind surfing. At the moment I can tack by doing a sort of shuffle around the board and fussing over where I put my feet. If I continue to do that, I won't fall in, but I won't get much better. At some point I'm going to have to make some quick decisive steps around the board and fall off lots, but eventually I'll get over that and move to another level (maybe). However, I'm not, and I don't think WW is advocating getting rid of all the jigs and guide marks that are necessary.

Originally Posted by Polie

The aim is to put a bevel on a curved table top, the method is to hand the tabletop over a running tablesaw on some sort of pendulum arrangement. This method may be fine if you are producing 100 tabletops per week but I think it is downright dangerous especially when the job could be easily completed with a hand tool like a spokeshave

I was just having another read of this thread and paid close attention to your drawing.
It seems that the piece in question requires the bevel on end grain.
Now, as someone trained in machinery only I can see how people such as myself would hesitate to use any kind of plane for this job, thus the tutorial you mention.

Now, it just so happens that many years ago I had the opportunity to attend classes at a place in Fitzroy. I THINK it was called Australian School of Woodcraft, or something similar. I know the standard of the others there was such that I was a fish out of water.
But, they taught me a lot about handtools.
One important thing was that they had a whole new definition to the word "Sharp". It was the first time I had ever seen a chisel sharp enough to easily shave a thin slice off endgrain of a piece of hardwood.
As a result of my memories of this school I know a spokeshave....suitably sharp...is a viable alternative. But to many people, they would assume trying to plane endgrain would be much more difficult.

BTW...I think I would have used a router or shaper for that job

Originally Posted by Basilg

snip
I find whilst I still use " Training wheels " I rely upon them less and less, and can accomplish tasks without thought " using the force ".

So, I would be very interested to hear peoples thoughts :

1. Are training wheels necessary -- Yes
2. Is the use of training wheels recommended -- Yes
3. What should be designated as training wheels -- See below
4. Should there be differentiation between " Hand made " and other work where some form of " Training Wheel " is employed. I note here a recent comment by Neiler in the same thread above, which refers to IMHO a justified comment on the use of a router. -- No
5. Would the " Training Wheels " available now been adopted by woodworkers in the 18th century had they been available. -- Yes

training wheels are the support needed while you learn to do something


Now if I have to provide a definition of "training wheels" I'd include

• a $40,000 computer controlled panel saw
• a saw guide from Lee Valley
  
• the apprentice training system
• Chris Schwarz's "The Anarchist's Tool Chest"
• any of Haywood's writings
• Father in Laws, friends, relations who teach you how to do things

basicly, anything, or anyone, that helps a person to learn to work wood could be classified as "training wheels"

the challenge is to discriminate between tools and appliances that are "training wheels" and those that are "tool shaped objects"