Thread: Frame Saw

I always thought you could use them either way.

Toby

Since they are usually operated by two people, the proper answer is both....

For operation by one person, it probably doesn't matter which way the teeth point, but you are going to have trouble following the line at the back of your cut where you can't see it. You can cope by constanly turning the board, but I reckon this is a time to buy your neighbor's favourite brew & invite him over for a while...

Cheers,

frame saws come in different sizes and for varying uses...a cabinet makers frame saw (aka European frame saw), the type (larger than our small bow saws aka turning saws which have recently been discussed) say 24"-28" would usually be used on the forward stroke, they can have blades similar in tpi to the common back saws we use for cabinet making, but also can also take blades of almost every type you can imagine, some would work on the back stroke as well, mostly the type for cutting green wood...old english terms know a different type of frame saw as a log saw, we tend to call them bow saws nowadays and the americans sometimes call em buck saws afaik. extra large two man frame saws obviously with correct blade cut both ways (on some the other person is just help guide/contol the saw (european extra large old style), it just cuts one direction) but a regular size frame saw (european saw) can turn the blade side ways so you can still do cuts as long as any length of timber, nothing to stop you flipping the blade around if that works better for you though, forward stroke seems to make sense letting the weight of the saw contribute to the cutting though


cheers
chippy

Good Morning Chris

I would like to express a slightly alternative view than our other members.

Frame saws, aka bow saws have been around since medieval times, but in the English speaking world seem to be mainly used as very large jig-saws and by a few eccentrics - for cross-cutting and ripping our solid blade hand-saws dominate.

The situation is quite different in continental Europe, especially Scandinavia and Germany, where bow saws are the norm for ripping and cross-cutting. They take a little more to master, but cut very quickly and with a much thinner kerf.

Tage Fried, the Danish master teaching and writing in America, has written extensively on this issue - try googling him.

Dieter Schmid in Germany offers an excellent range of bow saws, kits, plans and components. From experience, you can trust Dieter's recommendations. Delivery is usually about 6-7 days.
Homepage of Dieter Schmid's Fine Tools

Hope that this helps.

Fair Winds

Graeme

Thanks Guys, I'll try it both ways and see what works for me. Just so there is no confusion, the pic shows what I know as a frame saw

.Frame Saw.jpg

Hi ...

What is the size of material you are working with?

And have you seen this ... ?

Cheers,
Paul

Episode #41: Re-sawing Hand Tool Style | Logan Cabinet Shoppe

Also St Roy has one here at the 9:50 mark ... https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/r...ml#post1554652

roy frame.jpg

but also Peter described his Carbide-tooth bandsaw blade here (we were talking about set and finish) https://www.woodworkforums.com/f27/pr...ml#post1554701
... I wonder if it could have any application (the tooth shape) to a handsawing blade?

Paul

Originally Posted by chrisb691

Thanks Guys, I'll try it both ways and see what works for me. Just so there is no confusion, the pic shows what I know as a frame saw

.Frame Saw.jpg

yeah thats what i call a frame saw as well or a chair (frame) saw, but they come in different sizes and the ones about the same size with the tension on the top and blade to the bottom are also considered frame saws, which makes it confusing (really should be called large bow saws or cross cut bow saws etc, i think, something to tell them apart but obviously 'frame saws' is just a vague description that covers them all). i said european but Graeme said continental which is prob more accurate , for some reason i dont count england as part of europe, probably because all my old pommy mates used to refer to them (as well as anybody else for that matter) as foreigners lol ...continental frame saws arnt my thing really (though i completely appreciate they are very good tools in the right hands and do a great job, i thought they are meant to be used with the work more horizontal though and cutting down). one would assume they have different names for the different types, maybe, crosscut frame saw etc, perhaps someone from europe thats more familiar with them will know. however the one 'about' the size you have there i know as a chair (frame) saw, not that it has to be used for chairs we used them to make the rims (i forget the correct word for the part atm) for the wagon wheels and the bigger ones are pit saws (frame), like i see now pmgee has posted a pic of, which reminded me of using one a long time ago at sovereign hill (i used to help out there yonks ago) or in the barrossa valley somewhere, anyway i remember it looked just like the large one except the blade a bit different to those, instead of parallel width blade, the blade was 4 or 5 inches at the top and tapered down to about 2 or so at the bottom and the handle was a bit different to the pic and had a handle at the bottom for the guy in the pit, it only cut on the down stroke though, same with the chair saw (smaller/normal sized frame saw).



cheers
chippy

Originally Posted by pmcgee

......bandsaw blade ....... I wonder if it could have any application (the tooth shape) to a handsawing blade?

Paul, I "wondered" the same thing a few years ago, after trying a new style of blade in my bandsaw. It's a bimetal blade that sails through both green & dry wood like nothing I'd used before. So next time I picked up some new blades, I asked them for a couple of feet of straight blade & they gave me about a metre off the end of the roll. My visions of a frame saw that could outpace a chainsaw mill were soon dashed. These blades have far too much hook for manual saws. It cuts allright, but far too aggressively for comfort. It was hard to pull or push, and had a really rough action. It was a very good demonstration of why handsaws have negative rake. You can come up to zero for green or very soft wood, but going beyond that requires a sawyer with more skill & more strength than I have.

Chips, I have never had the misfortune to have used any type of pitsaw. I have only seen one in the flesh (or metal?), & it was a very long time ago, & although I remember thinking "My, what big teeth you have, grandma", I didn't notice what the rake angle was - I was far more interested in avoiding such things at that stage of my life, having spent too many hours on one end of a crosscut, with a large hardwood log hiding my old man on the other end. (The old b*gg*r could saw away all day without seeming to tire, while my arms and shoulders would be burning with fatigue!) The barn at home was built from pit-sawn wood, and you could clearly see the saw marks, about 3/8" apart, or more. Given that these would have been cut from large billets, that's a hefty bite - no wonder you only cut on the down stroke!

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

These blades have far too much hook for manual saws. It cuts allright, but far too aggressively for comfort. It was hard to pull or push, and had a really rough action. It was a very good demonstration of why handsaws have negative rake. You can come up to zero for green or very soft wood, but going beyond that requires a sawyer with more skill & more strength than I have.

I understand Ian - you have mentioned before about trying bandsaw blades. I was thinking more about the possibility of filing a 'normal' saw ... or equally a frame saw blade ... in an analogous way to work without set teeth.

I realise that the three-dimensional lump of TC on the bandsaw teeth creates its own clearance, wider than the blade width ... and the cathedral shape of the "triple-cut" tooth requires a thickness of material to cut away to form that shape ... so perhaps if possible at all you'd have to start with a thicker blade anyway.

Just thinking about it ... with a frame saw blade being less tall than a normal western or japanese saw ... can it support less set on the teeth - being as there is less blade to bind in the cut?

This thought process was in the context of the question about resawing and trying to minimise the loss to kerf width.

Thanks,
Paul

Also I haven't thought much about japanese saws ... I only have two. I know they are generally thinner than the western saw, being as they work under tension (on the pull stroke) rather than compression. Perhaps this might be a good option to finely resaw some material.

One is toothed rip and crosscut, about 270mm x 100mm. It is 37thou at the tang, but 22 thou at the middle of the leading edge, 24 thou at the toothline. Surprisingly the set seems to be a total of 45thou wide.

The other is a breasted ripsaw 300mm x 60mm. About 6tpi. 34 thou at the toothline, 26 at the back. But again set to 52 thou wide. (!)

Following the marked line would be the challenge - more than normal.

But what if one of these thin blades was put into a frame-saw framework and held permanently in tension?

Thanks,
Paul

Paul, although a narrow blade will bind less than a wide blade (less surface area to provide friction), nevertheless it will still bind, and the wetter the wood, the more it will bind, which is why saws used for cutting green wood are usually set way more than a saw used for cutting dry wood.

Although you will read much about saws with minimal or no set, these have, in my view, pretty restricted applications. Unless the cutting edges have adeqquate relief in some form or other (& that applies to any cutting edge), be it through set or a tapered blade, it is going to be hard to drive (and especially in wet wood). Worse, a saw with no set is almost impossible to 'steer' so if there is the slightest tendency to drift, you will not be able to 'steer' it back on track so not only will you get a wonky cut, you will shed a lot of unnecesary sweat. There is always a slight assymetry in even the most skillfully-sharpened saw, but it is (should be) very slight and a practised sawyer automatically corrects it as they go, and/or with shallow cuts it is too slight to be noticed. (I'm talking about very slight drift, not the blatant drift of a poorly set & sharpened tool). However, even a hint of drift is additive, & soon manifests itself in a long cut if not corrected.

There is much fussing about set in this & other forums, and there seems to be a school of thought that wants to eliminate it altogether. With all tools, you have to accept a set of compromises in the parameters that make it function. Set is just one variable, along with pitch & rake angle,that make a saw funtion at its best in a given situation. Sure, the more set you have, the more wood you have to remove for a cut, increasing effort & waste, but if you get the amount of set just right, it actually minimises effort and maximises speed of cut. There are situations where very little set is required, and others where much more works better. Getting the parameters spot-on with any saw is NOT easy - it requires a lot of experience and some skill. You could devise a set of measurements & rules for this, I'm sure, but they would be both cumbersome & subject to variation not only between two pieces of wood, but often within the same piece! In short, it would be utterly impractical, so we are left with intuition honed by experience & practice - not the most reliable, I'm afraid, and not easy to put into words, but I think it's the best we have. (And the reason you need a few saws.... ).

Cheers,

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Hi ...

What is the size of material you are working with?

And have you seen this ... ?

Cheers,
Paul

Episode #41: Re-sawing Hand Tool Style | Logan Cabinet Shoppe

I hadn't seen that video Paul, so thank you. That sure is a mean blade he is using. My material is 130mm x 40mm Jarrah.

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Just thinking about it ... with a frame saw blade being less tall than a normal western or japanese saw ... can it support less set on the teeth - being as there is less blade to bind in the cut?

This thought process was in the context of the question about resawing and trying to minimise the loss to kerf width.

Thanks,
Paul

that link Graeme gave earlier has Japanese blades for frame saws (bowsaw type)