Thread: Fret Saw

Lie Nielsen Australia may sell the Knew Concept fretsaw, but they are just a local agent and not a manufacturer.

Contact Knew Concepts for the Pegas 18tpi blades. Knew Concepts Coping Saws and Blades

This will give you insight into the origin of the saw: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...tsFretsaw.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, Thanks for the quick response (not sure if you're a night owl or an early bird).
I found a supplier here in NZ for the Knew Concept saw:

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They list the SF50033 saw which appears to be identical to that shown on the Knew Concepts site other than it takes jewelers type saw blades (i.e. 5-1/8" long and no pins). Would that perform as well in wood? I'm only thinking of ease of supply.
Pete

Wow! That's one heck of a link! It didn't look that long when I copied the URL!
Pete

Originally Posted by woodhutt

I'm in the market for a fret saw to remove dovetail waste and have searched the old threads. I like the look of the Lie Nielsen Knew Concept 3" with tension lever and swivel blade but can't find a description of the blade even on the LN website.
What blade is supplied with the saw? Are there blade options and if so what would be recommended? I don't normally work in hardwoods.

Hi Pete
From the Knew concepts web site
Knew Concepts coping and fret saws "come with a Pegas #7 skip tooth woodworking blade already installed and ready to use."

Note that Coping saw blades are PINNED, while Fret saw blades are UNPINNED. So which type of saw are you looking to get?

From the Lee Valley web site:
"Known for their exceptional durability, Pégas coping saw blades are also impressively sharp, making quick, clean cuts with minimal tearout. These 6 1/2" pinned blades are made of hardened carbon steel.The 10 tpi blade is for aggressive cuts in thicker stock. It is 0.115” wide and cuts a 0.033” kerf.
The 15 tpi blade is 0.110” wide and cuts a 0.028” kerf.
The 18 tpi skip-tooth blade is for tighter-radius cuts and work in thin stock. It can be used to remove waste from dovetails, as it is thin enough (0.090”) to be slipped into the cut left by most fine dovetail saws. Cuts a 0.026” kerf.

Also from the Lee Valley web site:
"These 5" blades (sold in packages of 12) are suitable for fret saws or power scroll saws.
The skip-tooth pattern gives good chip clearance and a fast rate of cut. They can be used for cutting plastic, tagua, bone, and hard rubber as well as wood. Sizes range from #2/0 for marquetry or similar fine work, to #9 for cutting thicker material up to 2". It is useful to have all styles on hand.

• The #2/0 blade has 30 tpi and is 0.009" thick by 0.025" wide
• The #1 blade has 25 tpi and is 0.012" thick by 0.025" wide
• The #3 blade has 18 tpi and is 0.013" thick by 0.030" wide
• The #5 blade has 16 tpi and is 0.015" thick by 0.040" wide
• The #7 blade has 14 tpi and is 0.018" thick by 0.045" wide
• The #9 blade has 14 tpi and is .020" thick by 0.053" wide

FWIW, I'd recommend you start with a pack of 12 #7 blades.
I can get these locally (Calgary) for CAD $10 per pack.

It's handy to have the swiveling blade clamps too so you can easily adjust the angle of the blade to the frame.

I wouldn’t Fret the small stuff personally lol lol.

Cheers Matt.

Sorry cant add anything about the blade but I purchased the 3 inch one but I wish I'd bought the next size up. It always seem to be a smidge too small for my dovetail work.

Yes I have the 5" one and that seems about right.

Thanks to everyone for their input, especially to Derek and Ian.
I seem to have mistakenly titled the thread 'Fret Saw' when actually what I want is a coping saw.
I've searched all NZ sites and can't find a supplier here (except for the Knew Concept jeweler's saw), the next nearest supplier is in Oz.
The last two purchases I have made from overseas (back in April and June) one from Oz and one the US both took about 5 weeks to arrive due to you-know-what.
I can, however, source the Pegas blades here from Carbatec who also sell the Pegas coping saw. All-up, the saw and packet of blades will only cost me NZ$40 + freight and I can have them in 1 - 2 days. So I'm thinking I will buy the Pegas saw and blades so I can continue working and order a Knew Concept 5" frame, probably from Lie Neilsen Aus. being the nearest and not worry about by any delivery delays.
OK. I'll end up with two decent coping saws. Who's counting?
Once again, thanks to all for the advice.
Pete

I am not sure if I understand the real difference between a coping and a fret saw. I visited the Knew Concepts' website and both types look so similar, except that fret saws seen to be offered in various sizes.

So, can both types be used for dovetails or is one preferable to the other? The Knew Concepts coping saw has a frame clearance of some 6 1/2" which looks rather big just to cut dovetails?

Cheers Yvan

Yvan, As I understand it, a fret saw has a fixed blade while a coping saw blade can be rotated within the frame. A fret saw blade is also usually finer (and prone to breakage more easily if not careful) but is easier to insert into a thin kerf made by a dovetail saw. Both types can be used to remove waste from between dovetails but the fret saw would need to have a larger frame to reach the cuts in the centre of the wood while the coping saw frame can be rotated out of the way (if that makes sense).
A fret saw, with its finer blade can also cut tighter curves where needed.
Pete

Originally Posted by woodhutt

Yvan, As I understand it, a fret saw has a fixed blade while a coping saw blade can be rotated within the frame. A fret saw blade is also usually finer (and prone to breakage more easily if not careful) but is easier to insert into a thin kerf made by a dovetail saw. Both types can be used to remove waste from between dovetails but the fret saw would need to have a larger frame to reach the cuts in the centre of the wood while the coping saw frame can be rotated out of the way (if that makes sense).
A fret saw, with its finer blade can also cut tighter curves where needed.
Pete

Pete
If we're only talking about Knew Concepts fret and coping saws, both types of saw have blades that can be rotated relative to the saw's frame.

For me the primary difference is that a coping saw has a wider blade and, if used to remove DT waste, you need to make a "swooping cut" which will leave some material in the center to be removed with another tool -- typically a chisel





Fret saw blades are small enough to fit down the kerf left by a DT saw and cut horizontally on the gauge line.

The two types of saws use different blades. The coping saw has a more beefed up blade which is thicker and stiffer. The tpi are lower, and it is designed for coarser cuts than the fine-toothed fretsaw. Below are the different blade-holding mechanisms for the coping (top) and fretsaw (bottom) ...



For dovetails, by far my preference is the fretsaw: a single pass cut, versus 2-3 pass cut with the coping saw.

Coping saw in the centre, surrounded by a bunch of fretsaws ...



Why so many? Simply that they were sent to me by Lee Marshall, since I helped with the original design and was instrumental in getting him to make them for woodworkers (they began as a saw only for jewellers): http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...tsFretsaw.html

More recent review: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...geFretsaw.html

... and a video I made on using one ...



Yes, I am not the average Youtuber .., this is better than Melatonin for sleep!

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by yvan

I am not sure if I understand the real difference between a coping and a fret saw. I visited the Knew Concepts' website and both types look so similar, except that fret saws seen to be offered in various sizes.

yvan, once there was a very clear difference, but like the terminology for back saws, it has become hopelessly blurred. Coping saws were short-reach saws made for coping the ends of mouldings etc., fret saws were very deep-reach saws made for cutting the complex fretwork used on pediments and galleries and boxwork. Making fretwork boxes was was especially popular in the late Victorian era & early 20th C. My grandmother (b.1882) had all sorts of fretwork boxes for the knick-knacks she used to keep. There are still folks doing fancy fretwork, but mostly with powered scrollsaws, tese days....

On a side note, the coping saw blades you buy at the local hardware store are not very good out of the packet, but if you touch them up with a jewellers file, they cut twice as well. Usually takes just one light stroke per tooth & less than a minute. Holding them in a vise with enough tooth exposed can be a challenge!

I used to use coping saw blades in my baby bowsaw for cutting waste out of dovetails etc: Coping blade.jpg

But I started using a very thin bladed dovetail saw & the coping saw blades are too thick to fit in the kerf it cuts. So I solved that problem by making some 250mm blades for a small bowsaw from the same material as the dovetail saw blade is made from: Bowsaws cf.jpg .

This is much nicer to use than a coping saw, it has a decent stroke length. The blade swivels, it has variable tension - who Kneeds a Knew Concept?

[To be honest, I would quite like to have a KC. jewellers saw frame. You can tension a wood-cutting blade up quite sufficiently with a cord & wooden frame, but for cutting metal with thin blades you need much higher tension. Those ultra-light KC frames should be far less fatiguing to use for for long sawing sessions, too. However, I get by with the much cheaper metal frame I've had for 30 years or more, and for the amount of metal sawing I do, I haven't been able to justify the cost of a new frame (yet).

Cheers,