Thread: Fretsaw blades?

Hi Derek,

Peter (aka Lightwood) will probably chime in here, but he recommended "vallorbe"
jewellers saw blades.

Rob Cosman, sells the blades he uses, 5 in 12.5 tpi skip tooth ( I believe), not sure if they are available elsewhere.

I have been using Zona, and they seem to work just fine for what I am doing, but I haven't had any vallorbe to make a comparison.

The (eclipse) coping saw blades as new, are not sharpened at all well, I find that a quick touch with a needle file
(just go for straight rip with zero rake) and they cut much better.

Good question, I'll be interested to see what others recommend.

Regards
Ray

Gday Derek.

In my fret saws and jewellers saws I just use the pinless scroll saw blades that I get from Jim Carroll, they seem to last well and there's always a good choice. I think I keep about half a dozen different types of wood cutting blades and a couple of different metal cutting blades without breaking the bank at all.

I prefer my little homemade bowsaw for coping saw blades, for removing dovetail waste - fretsaws are a bit too fine & tedious for me. However, same problem, Derek - the only blades I can buy lately are 'Eclipse' & they are hopeless. Soft as butter & dull as can be after a few minutes use, even in softish woods. A better quality blade would be much appreciated.

At least they are well-named, just about anything with a rough edge on it could eclipse them..............

RayG - how on earth do you hold a fretsaw blade to file it?
Next question, how do you see what you're hitting with the file? I have to use one of those headband loupes for filing any saw these days. (That's just so I can see the saw - the rest is guesswork .... )

Cheers,

Vallobra and similar jewellers' sawblades can be obtained (surprise, surprise) from a Jewellers' supplier. Examples are House of Jewellery and Australian Jewellers Supplies. I am lucky - the Sydney showroom of AJS is just around the corner from my office!

Derek and all,
First thing, I'm much more comfy working in metal than wood, but I have done some dovetailing, and have always used a jeweller's saw frame to remove the waste because I'm very used to the pull stroke with that saw.
I'm a fan of the Vallorbe saw blades in metal and fine work in wood especially the thinner stuff. But I have a box of fret blades of unknown make which I got in a group of old tools that I use to remove waste on DTs. I had to go past the big green store this morning, so went and got a packet of the dreaded Eclipse blades to try them. They look just the same as the one blade I have used to cut all the waste in pine and blackwood when I made a tool chest / toy box for grandson Coen, and in Oak just a handful on his change table...just the one blade, and it still is in the same sawframe. I just got a piece of 1inch Hickory Wattle, a bit harder than Blackwood, and did a quick test on it with the old and one of the new Eclipse blades.
The key to some success might be to use a smaller frame only, and to put a 45 deg twist in the blade about 6 - 8 mm back from where it is clamped. I'm pretty good with the saw frame, and only when I have too, will use one of the 2 or 3 larger ones I have. But I find I'm much more able to control the smaller one that I use most often.
I had a look at how much tension I put on the blade, I push the frame only about 3 - 4mm and nip up the screw. That is the modern Eclipse brand saw...just tried one of my older jeweller's saw frames, and that is just about the same, perhaps a little less. Too much tension is a problem.
Here is a couple of quick cuts....right side - old blade, left side - new blade. This isn't a real test, but I felt like the new blade would do many more of the same cuts without a problem. Like all these things, it is what we do that isn't on a conscious level but relies on muscle memory. So I though carefully as I did the cuts...work set to correct height for parallel motion of the forearm, lightness of grip, gently pull, watch the blade for bending, evidence it is being forced out of it's true line, as is the tightening of the blade in the kerf, let the tool cut slowly without forcing it.
If there is a better blade, I would love to give it a try, but I think refining your technique might be great help, and then a better blade will help more. Note the left cut I did was closer to the line, It took a couple of minutes to get it back together again, and I have seen advice to start the day with a practice dovetail. I think an exercise like that would help lots, as most of us only do certain types of work occasionally, and it can take a bit of time to get up to speed again.



Regards,
Peter

Thought I better give the Eclipse blade a better test, so cut a few more even wider, and it is only a little slower to cut.
Peter

Originally Posted by IanW

RayG - how on earth do you hold a fretsaw blade to file it?
Next question, how do you see what you're hitting with the file? I have to use one of those headband loupes for filing any saw these days. (That's just so I can see the saw - the rest is guesswork .... )

Cheers,

Hi Ian,

The coping saw blades, are actually not all that fine toothed. (not like a jewellers saw blade) I also use a headband magnifier, although you aren't really reshaping the teeth, more a case of touching up the points, one swipe per tooth pretty much does it, you would be amazed what a difference it makes to the standard eclipse blades. Give it a try.

You could try clamping the blade in a vise, but just clamping the frame is enough.


Regards
Ray

PS. Going off to try Peter's trick of a 45 deg twist....

Peter and Ray

Many thanks for all that great info.

Peter thank you for your demo - you vastly underestimate your skills in wood! I have been enjoying your planing building exploits, which reveal the excellence in metal work to the forum here that I have been aware of for some years.

Ray, thanks for the info on the coping saw blades.

The problem with the fret saw only began when I started to use Eclipse blades. My technique with the fret saw must be a factor. I am not sure what I am doing differently to before, but the Eclipse blades - as Peter shows - are unlikely to be the cause of the snapping as I previously thought.

Vallorbe blades come highly recommended, and I have discovered (via the internet) that a supplier has an agency 10 minutes away. I think I will have a look there as I would like coarser blades than I have. Any suggestions? I suspect that part of the reason for snapping blades is my overenthusiasm with blades that are now cutting so slowly. My old no-name blades cut much faster.

Peter, I am interested in your input with regard to a fret saw. I have a sweet vintage one (see the picture at the start of the thread), a Hugenot-Tissot. However, compared to your "old" one, it is a delicate and less robust design. It is also quite small, with a depth of 3". Would you recommend any of these Vallorbe designs? http://www.ajsonline.com.au/pdf/2008%20Sawing.pdf Or do you have a link for something else?

Ray, I have also ordered some of the 18 tpi coping saw blades from Joel at TFWW as these are slim enough to fit into a kerf. They come recommended and I thought I'd give them a try as well.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

The problem with the fret saw only began when I started to use Eclipse blades. My technique with the fret saw must be a factor. I am not sure what I am doing differently to before, but the Eclipse blades - as Peter shows - are unlikely to be the cause of the snapping as I previously thought.

Vallorbe blades come highly recommended, and I have discovered (via the internet) that a supplier has an agency 10 minutes away. I think I will have a look there as I would like coarser blades than I have. Any suggestions? I suspect that part of the reason for snapping blades is my overenthusiasm with blades that are now cutting so slowly. My old no-name blades cut much faster.

Peter, I am interested in your input with regard to a fret saw. I have a sweet vintage one (see the picture at the start of the thread), a Hugenot-Tissot. However, compared to your "old" one, it is a delicate and less robust design. It is also quite small, with a depth of 3". Would you recommend any of these Vallorbe designs? http://www.ajsonline.com.au/pdf/2008%20Sawing.pdf Or do you have a link for something else?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,
The saw frame ( jeweller's name for a fret saw) in that picture is the one I use in the woodworking workshop, it's a pretty late Eclipse, and I have 7 more older ones with a throat depth of 300mm (12in) down to 45mm (1 3/4in). There are 3 of the standard size on or close to my bench all the time with 3 different size Vallorbe blades in them. I had one of the Vallorbe frames that came in a group of old tools and sold it because I'm so used to the traditional handles. I have one of those German made ones on the right side of the page you gave the link. They are very good value.
I will be seeing the Melb branch of that company next week and had planed to get some of the larger Vallorbe blades to try out in thicker wood. I don't think any of them will be as coarse as the Eclipse blades though. I think the fret saw people on this forum might be the better source of info / blades.
As a guide, I did count the number of strokes it takes me to cut the waste, on the wider ones it was between 60 and 70 strokes. Now that might sound like a lot, but I go hell for leather at it, and have the control to whip through them. I think a slightly thicker and more aggressive blade would be easier to use. The Eclipse blades I got are 0.4mm thick and 18 TPI.
Regards,
Peter