Thread: Fulton back saw or backsaw

Good explanation Mike.

Originally Posted by MikeW

One means to resolve whether Sears did such a thing is to look through reprints of Sears catalogs--which I no longer own. Made great out house reading, though...

Yeah Mike, I remember those outhouses at the holiday house, though we used newspaper. Bet you're kicking yourself now?

sourdough, Microsoft have a number of small programs they call Power Toys. They can be downloaded individually. The one you need is called Image Resizer and is very simple to use. Once installed it is simple to right click the image and select Resize Image from the drop down menu. Good luck.
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/d...powertoys.mspx

prozac

Hi George,

No worries. I probably came off bad for writing that about Facebook and apologize if so. My issues are with them, not anyone using them.

The bolts and nuts you describe are the Grover patent type. And yes, you described them just fine.

Prozac mentioned MS' PowerToys and that is a handy set of tools that go beyond easy resizing for a PC.

Take care, Mike

PS, the catalog was reading material. Really. Trust me...

Attached are the images I finally got reduced in size. Sorry for all the delay. Is it winter in Australia? And what's this OZ?

Since I work part time in my retirement at a woodworking shop in my home town where we have a lot of older woodworking item up for display I think I may clean this little guy up a bit and put him up.

The saw itself is obviously, at it's size it may be a new one to Mike.
The saw is, at the tooth edge, just over 65 cm long (and you have no idea how hard it is to find something that measures centimeters in this backward Yankee country) and the top from the front back to the rear top point of the handle is just under 85 cm. That is unless you all are as "backward" as us Yanks in which case it's 26 and 32 inches respectively.

Thanks all for your more than excellent help on the problem. By the by, no offense taken at the reluctance to sign up for Facebook. I asked my friend who told me there was a way of setting it up so y'all could have seen the pics without signing up but this one ought to cover it, eh?

Sourdough

Thanks for the pictures sourdough. Here is a quote from Disstinian Institute site.

Code:

 "Warran and Ted Superior were not brothers in the saw manufacturing business.
Warranted Superior medallions are found on secondary lines manufactured by Disston and other major saw makers with other brand names on the etch. Some smaller 19th century saw makers may have bought sawnuts and medallions from the bigger factories.
After 1900 or so the "small guys" were actually secondary lines of the "big guys." The small companies were bought up by bigger ones and some of their products were continued for a time. Harvey Peace is one example. Most American saws from the 20th century, regardless of brand name, were made in the works of Disston, Atkins, Bishop, or Simonds.
In the case of Disston, their replacement medallions were stamped Warranted Superior rather than "Disston." I would speculate their rationale was they didn't want their name on lesser-quality saws. Brand identity and loyalty in the U.S. was much stronger in the first half of the 20th century than it is today"

If you look at the Warranted Superior Medallion from the Disstonian site you will see it is identical to the medallion on your Fulton saw. Also the saw handle on your Fulton looks indistinguishable from the Disston Mitre Box saw #4. These came in 26", 30" and 32". Yours is the 26" baby...still a big boy.

prozac

Thanks again. Looks like you have pretty well pinned this one down, Prozac.

When I looked up the Disston #4 originally I thought that it was very much like this one and that about explains it.

I have another one I am going lookig for tonight and you guys may know of it also.
It's a Monkey Wards as we say in the States. The info on the mitre box states:
Montgomery Ward No. 84-3975M Mitrebox Wards Master Quality Montgomery Ward

and the saw itself saysWards Master Superior Quality Tempered Balde
Filed and Set Montgomery-Ward No. 84 - (?)975 28" X 5" (can't read the 1st number after the 84 - .

Pretty likely this was much later than the other saw but it's still in very nice condition although the base plate board has been replaced at some time so doesn't have the authenticity that the other has in appearance.

Sourdough

Originally Posted by sourdough

Thanks again. Looks like you have pretty well pinned this one down, Prozac. .....
Sourdough

I would not feel comfortable claiming we have a victory on this sleuthing until some others of the brains trust have concurred.

I have not heard of a Montgomery Ward saw and wait with interest for photos.

prozac

Originally Posted by sourdough

Is it winter in Australia? And what's this OZ?

Sourdough

Yes. "Oz" is Oz(Aus)tralia; "Oosa" is USA; "Canuckistan" is The Great White North; "Merrie Olde" is England/UK; etc., etc.

Whenever one of the young bucks tells me something is "easy," I tell him, "Brain surgery is easy, if you know how; tying your own shoes is difficult if you don't know how."

Stanley tape measure #30-824 is marked in both inches and centimeters, and should be available at Lowes or Home Depot or both. Assuming they're still operating, McLendon Hardware in Renton would be a good bet too. Millimeters are the tiny divisions, 25.4 to the inch. IIRC (If I Recall Correctly), the Italian artisans on temporary assignment to build the Sydney Opera House with curved precast concrete shells had a sweet old time converting from millimeters to/from centimeters; luckily, the building wasn't 10 times too big or too small.

Montgomery Ward was the same business model as Sears, essentially rebadged stuff from some of the same vendors.

Joe

Hi George,

Yes, it is a later one. The earlier Fultons had a bit more shape to the handle, earliest ones had a lamb's tongue detail.

The Warren & Ted medallion is to be expected. Smaller manufacturers bought generic medallions rather than go to the added expense of having ones with their names made.

For what it is worth, I mostly build in metric but do mix measurements when convenient. Typically my tapes are Lufkin, steel rules are Starrett. The Lufkin tapes can be bought from Ace hardware.

Take care, Mike

Mike, what do you mean by "lambs tongue" detail? Does this refer to handle shape or perhaps the carving?

prozac

Hi Prozac,

In the following picture, the lamb's tongue is that carved place where the lower handle to cheek connection is:



I don't have a handy picture of my Fulton, but the large tenon we make for LV is patterned after it. Just cannot see it as well on their picture:



Many/most of the older saws had lamb's tongues on the closed handles (a closed handle has two points of connection between the hand hold and the cheek of the saw).

It is a detail that has to be hand worked--it is faster than making one by machine--and so was one detail that was dropped over time in order to increase production. Which is neither a good or bad thing.

For that matter, the chamfers where the back enters the handle were also eased in order to speed production. And some like the Fulton only had very shallow chamfers anyway for that reason. Details take time, time is money and all that. And while they enhance the look of a handle, it doesn't affect the use of the saw and so I think it was natural for companies to make those changes to save money rather than lessen the overall quality of the saws. Later changes did affect the quality.

Take care, Mike

Originally Posted by prozac

I would not feel comfortable claiming we have a victory on this sleuthing until some others of the brains trust have concurred.

prozac

Hi Prozac,

I think you got it pretty well right with the very first post. (you can get a swelled head now!)

A couple of extra points to note.

First Point.
You could buy "Warranted Superior" screws as a separate item from Disston, and possibly others. In the UK Priest & Co actually trademarked the "Warranted Superior" saw screw, although that one has a crown, not an eagle. Saw screws have been made by many companies over a long period of time. And having a "warranted superior" screw sometimes doesn't help make a positive id. Maybe someone should do a detailed study of the various "warranted superior screws.

Second Point.
Henry Disston, offered saws with customer supplied etching, so you could have your own company logo on a Disston made saw. I imagine this would be documented in the disston records somewhere. (don't know who has access to those, but that would be a confirmation)

My speculation would be that it was made after Sears(or whoever else) bought Fulton, since that buy-out would have given them rights to use the name. (Sears perhaps ordered it from Disston with Fulton Markings) But trying to narrow down a date as to when it was made is a bit harder, Disston were making No4 mitre box saws up to the 1950's.

Before Fulton was sold, I would expect they would have made it themselves.

Going by the handle style (which is a dicey business at best) I would be thinking later rather than earlier. best guess would be 1900-1950. Maybe dating the Stanley Mitre Box could provide a better indication (assuming that they were sold together of course)

Now, if we can have a volunteer, to rescue those old Sear's catalogs from MikeW's outhouse we might have a chance.....

Nice work prozac.

Regards
Ray

Hah, the cabin and out house is still there. But the catalogs are long gone.



Lived there nearly 9 years. Life was good. Two of the boys were born in that cabin. That picture was just before the snows started for the year. We barely got the cabin raised and the final roofing in place before the 5' of snow we eventually got that winter hit.

Take care, Mike

Code:

 Most American saws from the 20th century, regardless of brand name, were made in the works of Disston, Atkins, Bishop, or Simonds.
In the case of Disston, their replacement medallions were stamped Warranted Superior rather than "Disston."

Ray, the quote above is just that, a quote of an opinion based on research. Doesn't of-course mean that it is true. Also as you say it appeared that Disston did sell medallions to smaller saw makers. But if the quote is to be believed then I think that the Fulton saw being made after 1900, and having such a similar handle to the Disston Mitre Box #4 was probably made by Disston. This is not based on truth, just my deduction.

George's Fulton saw would not have likely been made by Fulton because as Mike points out it would have had split-nuts which were the feature of the time and which George's doesn't. I would guess also that if made prior to 1895 (when Fulton was sold to Union) that it might have had some carving detail in the handle.

And Ray, I'm not about to go down to Mike's outhouse.

Oh G'day Mike! Did you really build that cabin and live there? How cool is that, we have a real life Grizzly Adams in our midst! Perhaps we can do a log-hut building tutorial?

Sourdough, I am not sure if you have picked-up on the company but Mike is a saw guru. In the world of saw users he is Saw Royalty. Lol.

prozac

I think I've been misunderstood. It's not that the split nuts indicate a Fulton saw or not, just that split nuts indicate a pre-1880 build. Even after Sear's buy out, it would still be a Fulton saw, just that the company had parent ownership.

We see that with dozens of companies Disston (and others) bought out as well. Most companies Disston bought were closed. Others were still operated some greater or lessor autonomy--but certainly with Disston oversight.

Ah, the cabin years. We bought 60 acres in 1977, moved into the cabin in 1978. Though we were in the cabin for most of 9 years, we lived up in North Idaho for neary a dozen. I logged most of the time up there.

We had wonderful times. I sorely miss those days, but perhaps as much from a nostalgic viewpoint. Here's a shot of me teaching my oldest son how to shoot a black powder rifle while it was light out in preperation for the evening's 4th of Jul celebration. We both were a bit younger...



More on topic, I inherited many of the tools my family had used to pioneer in Washington state in the mid-1800s. Though we used a chainsaw for much of the work in felling and bucking, the old saws, chisels and slicks, peaveys, log dogs and much more were used to build the cabin. They also afforded me to barter with many of the people who lived up there who needed furniture, additions, etc, to be built. Did I mention it was a good life?

Take care, Mike