Thread: Geez I Love Old School Engineering design.

I've got a couple of Record 145s with 4 collars. They look the same. Very useful tools. I've arranged the collars in a line along the bench so that the hold fasts can overlap each other.

TT

So many riches!

I want a second one for my (future) new bench. Four is just greedy.

Originally Posted by goodvibes

So many riches!

I want a second one for my (future) new bench. Four is just greedy.

Yep, snagged them on eBay a few years back. Didn't pay that much for them as I remember. My bench is a solid core door so I have no qualms in drilling out a bunch of holes along its length.

TT

Goodvibes, I just don't get this current passion for holdfasts! It seems to me they are an awkward, last-resort way of holding something while you work on it. What's the advantage of having a chunk of metal right smack in the middle of the piece you are trying to operate on?? OK, I have a couple of them (wooden ones, of course ) and they are occasionally handy for holding the end of a board laid across the bench, but there are very few times when the front vise or tail vises can't adequately hold whatever I'm working on.

Maybe it's just the sort of stuff we make, or individual preferences, but take the example in the picture you showed. From the row of dog-holes beside the board, there must be a tail vise of some sort on that bench - why wouldn't you simply clamp that board up between those dogs & have at the whole surface, free of obstructions??

Just wondering.....
Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Goodvibes, I just don't get this current passion for holdfasts! It seems to me they are an awkward, last-resort way of holding something while you work on it. What's the advantage of having a chunk of metal right smack in the middle of the piece you are trying to operate on?? OK, I have a couple of them (wooden ones, of course ) and they are occasionally handy for holding the end of a board laid across the bench, but there are very few times when the front vise or tail vises can't adequately hold whatever I'm working on.

Maybe it's just the sort of stuff we make, or individual preferences, but take the example in the picture you showed. From the row of dog-holes beside the board, there must be a tail vise of some sort on that bench - why wouldn't you simply clamp that board up between those dogs & have at the whole surface, free of obstructions??

Just wondering.....
Cheers,

Possibly the same reason we use hand tools instead of power tools and can fall in love with an Austin 7?

Originally Posted by IanW

Goodvibes, I just don't get this current passion for holdfasts! It seems to me they are an awkward, last-resort way of holding something while you work on it. What's the advantage of having a chunk of metal right smack in the middle of the piece you are trying to operate on?? OK, I have a couple of them (wooden ones, of course ) and they are occasionally handy for holding the end of a board laid across the bench, but there are very few times when the front vise or tail vises can't adequately hold whatever I'm working on.

Maybe it's just the sort of stuff we make, or individual preferences, but take the example in the picture you showed. From the row of dog-holes beside the board, there must be a tail vise of some sort on that bench - why wouldn't you simply clamp that board up between those dogs & have at the whole surface, free of obstructions??

Just wondering.....
Cheers,

Ian, I've watched your video a few times on youtube and love your work bench. You've stated the exact reason I use the metal clamps. I don't have a tail vice. If I ever build another bench it will be something like yours. How thick is your bench top by the way?

TT

Originally Posted by Twisted Tenon

Ian, I've watched your video a few times on youtube and love your work bench. You've stated the exact reason I use the metal clamps. ......

Well, TT, I was really being a bit cheeky and winding gv up, just a bit, though I do have a genuine question about why hold-downs are suddenly on everyone's "must have" list. I feel the woodworking world, like every other pursuit of man, is cursed (or blessed, depending on point of view) by fashion trends. It could be pointed out, of course, that I jumped on the fashion trend for tail-vises back in the 1980s. Let me publicly confess, it was mostly because I thought they were so cool, because until I had one, I really didn't know how damn useful they can be! I discovered that after...

Originally Posted by Twisted Tenon

.... How thick is your bench top by the way?....

The little bench you see in the video has a top about 45mm thick from back apron to the dog holes, where it jumps to about 75mm deep for the dogs, and again to about 150mm for the front apron to accommodate the front vise. There are some details and pics of it here.

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Well, TT, I was really being a bit cheeky and winding gv up, just a bit, though I do have a genuine question about why hold-downs are suddenly on everyone's "must have" list.

Ya dirty rat!

I love the thing partly for the elegance of the solution. You look at the older holdfasts which are pretty much a piece of bent metal turned through a hole in the bench to achieve that "third hand" to hold something down and you immediately see the limitations (first and foremost a lack of adaptability to different objects) and I also shiver a little at how much I think those things might slip.

Then somebody sat down and had a good think. Same hole in the bench. Lets have a third hand. Cater for a broad range of shapes and sizes. I first saw one of these in a wood sculptors studio with the holdfast securing a lifesize head and shoulders carving. And quickly worked out it could also hold down a plank or plate a couple of mill thick.

And then the solution so clever. A ratchet style back to the shaft and matching grooves in the collar. Just one screw, which simultaneously exerts force on the object being held AND against the shaft, forcing it tight against the grooves in the collar with zero chance of slippage. Genius. Shaft, lever arm, hinged foot, screw.

I'm with Twisted Tenon on this as well. I don't have your skills, nor do I have deep enough pockets to pay somebody to build a bench like that for me. So I won't have a bench like yours.

I can stretch to drilling a hole through the work surface though. (And did I say I LOVE the elegant engineering?)

Originally Posted by IanW

...I do have a genuine question about why hold-downs are suddenly on everyone's "must have" list.

Two words: Christopher Schwarz

Just to clarify, the holdfast is not permanently stuck there is it? The blue collar piece is permanent but the metal sticky-uppy bit can come and go, right? Assuming that's correct, that's a pretty cool thingamajig.

I am kind of like Ian on this one though. I've never really had a use for one. As a matter of fact, the only reason I can think of to use a holdfast instead of a tail vise would be for chopping a mortise that would otherwise have to be chopped in such a way that the mallet blows would reverberate through the tail vise itself, potentially causing damage to the screw mechanism. That said, in all but the most oddball situations, I would think you could just turn the workpiece around so that the mortise was being chopped over the bench proper instead of the vise itself.

But, as always, I know there are far more experienced folks than me who think otherwise. If nothing else, holdfasts, including that shiny, blue one, are a pretty cool example of physics at work.

Cheers,
Luke

And, furthermore, what is this about Ian's workbench video? Anyone got a link?

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

Two words: Christopher Schwarz Just to clarify, the holdfast is not permanently stuck there is it? The blue collar piece is permanent but the metal sticky-uppy bit can come and go, right? Assuming that's correct, that's a pretty cool thingamajig. Luke

Correct.

Originally Posted by IanW

Well, TT, I was really being a bit cheeky and winding gv up, just a bit, though I do have a genuine question about why hold-downs are suddenly on everyone's "must have" list. I feel the woodworking world, like every other pursuit of man, is cursed (or blessed, depending on point of view) by fashion trends. It could be pointed out, of course, that I jumped on the fashion trend for tail-vises back in the 1980s. Let me publicly confess, it was mostly because I thought they were so cool, because until I had one, I really didn't know how damn useful they can be! I discovered that after... The little bench you see in the video has a top about 45mm thick from back apron to the dog holes, where it jumps to about 75mm deep for the dogs, and again to about 150mm for the front apron to accommodate the front vise. There are some details and pics of it here. Cheers,

Ian, I've had mine for a while now, and it's because I don't have a tail vice. They do a rather good job of compensating for that. I'll post some photos of how I use them tomorrow, but your point is valid, a tail vice is a more versatile option. I have no room on my bench for one. In any case mine is not a true woodworkers bench but a flat surface with a leg vice and a quick release vice attached. The reason I asked about the thickness of your bench top is that I have recently come into the possession of a bench top. Long story, but its 2850 long and 700 wide and 32 thick. It's hardwood and varnished on one side. I think it would make an excellent bench but the thickness is a concern.

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

And, furthermore, what is this about Ian's workbench video? Anyone got a link?

Try this

TT

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

Just to clarify, the holdfast is not permanently stuck there is it? The blue collar piece is permanent but the metal sticky-uppy bit can come and go, right? Assuming that's correct, that's a pretty cool thingamajig.


Luke

Correct. It's part of the smart old school design.

Just a turn on the screw and the shaft is no longer forced against the ribs in the collar and just lifts out, either to remove or to adjust the height.

Give a modern engineer that problem and he'd put in a separate locking device at the foot of the shaft.

A couple of old photos I've seen of these (and the old bent rod type) both involve cutting planks/beams to length. The cutline of the chunk of wood overhangs the right side of the bench, and the holdfast is to the worker's left side taking the muscle work out of holding the wood steady.

Makes sense, particularly if your cutting a lot of pieces. Very quick and easy changeover.

Originally Posted by goodvibes

Ya dirty rat!.....

Guilty as charged, m'lord.

Originally Posted by goodvibes

... I love the thing partly for the elegance of the solution. You look at the older holdfasts which are pretty much a piece of bent metal turned through a hole in the bench to achieve that "third hand" to hold something down and you immediately see the limitations (first and foremost a lack of adaptability to different objects) and I also shiver a little at how much I think those things might slip. ...

Hmm, I like elegance, too, and especially elegant simplicity. The simple holdfasts actually hold very well, are simple to engage (a couple of mallet taps) and simple to disengage (more mallet taps on the back). My biggest worry with the metal ones is that they have rather small faces in contact with the wood & would be liable to marking up your wood if applied a bit too vigorously. My low-tech wooden ones hold pretty well & the broad wood faces don't injure soft wood. However, to use the simple holdfasts, you have to keep picking up & putting down a mallet or hammer, whereas with your screw type, you just reach over & unscrew the cam. I guess I would prefer to work with yours if I were to use holdfasts a lot.

Originally Posted by goodvibes

...... I don't have your skills, nor do I have deep enough pockets to pay somebody to build a bench like that for me. So I won't have a bench like yours. ....

Never say never, my lad! I can remember, one or two years ago, looking at a European-style bench and thinking how grand it would be to have something like that to work on, & also thinking it was far too difficult for a simple bloke like me to tackle. I was right on the first bit & dead wrong on the second. Building a bench isn't the acme of woodworking, if you can chop a decent mortice (using your holdfast or whatever method you choose ), you can easily make a bench. In our corner of the planet, it needn't cost you much, either. If you can intercept some of the perfectly good hardwood that goes to the tip every day, it can be virtually free. Apart from the wooden screw in the tail vise, this bench was built entirely from wood recovered from a skip (as testified by the nail-holes ): Scrap bench.jpg

So don't write it off completely...
Cheers.
IanW B.E. (=Bench Evangelist ).