Thread: Getting started with hand sawing

Craig

The true believers do advance strong arguments in relation to bow saws (as do the true believers on Japanese saws).

My take is that it is all about what you feel most comfortable with for the job at hand and that is a combination of experiences and practice combined with a fair measure of belief - if you believe that this saw is the best for the job, your will tend to perform the task better. By way of analogy, it is like golf club selection - if you believe you have the right club in your hand you will swing with the freedom of that conviction, thereby eleiminating many of the reasons for golfers making bad swings. Sawing is not dissimilar.

That doesn't mean that what saw makes no difference and that if you believe enough you can cut spotted gum with a blunt butter knife, but once your saw is sharp and straight, the rest is probably belief. For example, I like Tade Frid's idea of all saws being rip saws, but I still do better cross-cuts using a saw with a Western saw cross-cut tooth filed with a bit of fleam.

So, have a go at whatever looks best in your eye until you find the saw that you just can't make a mistake with. Along the way you will learn whether you like the feel of a Western or a Japanese saw (I like Western for large work and Jap for smaller stuff like boxes) and panel and back saws or frame and bow saws. Again I like each for particular jobs (and sometimes change my preference from time to time).

The main diffficulty with bow saws is finding a 600mm one - the usual advice is to make one of your own sing an old 25mm or wider bandsaw blade for the cutting edge. You cna buy both new bow saws and the blades from My Tool Store if that interests you.

Best of luck

Originally Posted by craig_waitakere

...I'm willing to buy good quality tools in order to do this. I spend enough money on noise machines that even the very best hand saws would seem cheap by comparison...

Hi Craig,

There must be some good usable vintage hand and back saws available for less than premium hand saws there. If you are new to hand sawing, I would suggest tool markets, boot sales and the like where you can pick the saws up in the hand rather than eBay for a source of decent vintage saws. With less invested, should you decide hand sawing stock and our hand cutting joinery isn't for you, you will be out less investment. Just a thought.

But if eBay is the only option, make sure to ask the seller for clear pictures if not already provided. You need straight blades, plenty of "meat" left on the blades, preferably with the approximate number of teeth desired. You will need to joint and sharpen the blades of most any vintage saw you buy. Might as well learn from the start--and use a junk saw picked up at a boot sale to learn on.

You will need to eventually pick up a number of hand saws should you decide you like working with them in order to go from rough to final dimensioning and on to joinery. It is a significant investment even with vintage saws in good condition.

There are also several really good sellers of vintage tools in the US if one cannot find them locally. But shipping would become an issue.

Originally Posted by craig_waitakere

...Finally, if there are any folks experienced with handsaws near Auckland, NZ, please feel free to drop me a line.

This is a great idea, really. It will lessen your learning curve and provide quick feedback as to technique. The same applies to sharpening the saws you end up with--much easier to learn if someone shows you and watches you for the first saw.

Take care, Mike

Thanks for the great replies guys.

In regards to Mike's suggestions, I do have a couple of flee market backsaws. One of them tennon saw sized, and one of them nearly small enough to call a dovetail saw. Needless to say, I've never sharpened them (or had them sharpened).

I do quite like these saws, and they are going to be the first thing I try sharpening. I don't think I see myself cutting fine joinery with a panel saw (regardless of what Tage Frig might do). However, I've never really liked the western "carpenter's saw". I've used them (cheap ones from mitre 10) for crosscutting wood or cutting ply, but never considered that one might use them for producing a nice straight rip cut, or re-sawing.

So, that leads me into my one concern with doing up old tools verses buying premium ones. In some cases, I don't know how a good example of the tool is supposed to work. Not having any wise old cabinetmakers around to show me such things in person, I'm inclined to get at least a few premium quality saws to judge my own efforts against.

Craig

Originally Posted by craig_waitakere

So, that leads me into my one concern with doing up old tools verses buying premium ones. In some cases, I don't know how a good example of the tool is supposed to work. Not having any wise old cabinetmakers around to show me such things in person, I'm inclined to get at least a few premium quality saws to judge my own efforts against.
Craig

Craig - that's probably not a bad idea. Of course, you can still choose the wrong tool for the job, but in general, if you start with a good tool in top shape, you can usually blame the operator when things don't go the way you want....

In addition to the excellent advice given by Jeremy & Mike, I would add that you need to keep realistic expectations of what saws do. Don't expect a final fit right off the saw for fine joinery. For instance, when you cosscut a piece and the end has to be perfect, you clean up on a shooting board. And if you are cutting tenon shoulders for the front of that fancy Mahogany cabinet, we were taught to cut just to the waste side of the knife line, then clean the last whisker off with a chisel. Nowadays I use a good shoulder plane, but the principle is that saws are inevitably a bit rough for very fine work - you usually need to clean up after them for very precise work. What comes with practice & good, well-tuned saws is the ability to cut VERY close to that knife line! Same goes for rip cuts, cut close to the line & clean up - so you really need to buy a coupe of decent planes along with those saws.

One joint where I don't clean up after the saw (or very rarely) is the dovetail. With a decent saw you can have a watertight fit, straight off. I was taught this by an old cabinetmaker long before I heard of Tage Frid - he nearly choked when he saw me gnawing away at a set one day. "What the #@*! are you doing there, son?" "Just making these dovetails fit" says I. "Come over here & I'll show you how to cut them right in the first place & they'll *!##!*-well fit" was the growled advice. So now I do, and they do....

I'm an advocate of backsaws, too. I own several bowsaws, & they do jobs backsaws can't, but I'm sure if I cut dovetails with a bowsaw, a mouse could escape through most f them. Maybe if I were raised with nothing but bowsaws ?

Cheers,

Hi Craig,

There is a world of difference between a premium handsaw and the stuff that you can buy at hardware outlets currently. The main differences in the sharpening, have a look over at Finewoodworking, there is a video on how to tune up a $10 dovetail saw and what you should expect performance wise.

Biggest problems with cheap dovetail saws are that usually they are sharpened cross-cut with way too much set. The result is they don't rip cut very well, and with too much set, the blade can wobble around in the kerf, this makes cutting a straight line almost impossible.

A few weeks back I went beserk and bought half a dozen brand new plastic handled hard-point tenon saws just to see if they were really as bad as they looked, sorry to say they were actually worse than I thought. The only one that was usable was a Spear and Jackson, and even that was nowhere near the performance of a 19th Century tenon saw used for comparison. The effort they put into automating the production was completely wasted, because the design was simply wrong.

Personally I find it very satisfying to bring an old saw back to life, and it doesn't have to cost a fortune.

Once you get the hang of sharpening your own saws, you won't look back.



Regards
Ray

Hi Craig,

I am a newbie to woodworking. I am still practicing my sawing.

I own both the Western (older model Bahco that can be sharpened and the PrizeCut Tenon Saw) and Japanese (Tajima Rapid Pull 265 & Shark dowel/dovetail saw) style saws.

I have used them for different purposes and sometimes switch between them for the same cut just to get a feel how I like one over the other.

Granted, these are not expensive saw, but I do prefer the Japanese pull saw to the Western saw. On my current project, I find the Tajima cutting finer and straigher tenons.

I would never buy another Bahco PrizeCut model, they just don't work for me.

The pull motion seems to allow better control, at least for me. Maybe from playing lots of squash, my muscles are more "trained" for such motion. The grip is more comfortable too. The vibration is much lower, so it is more forgiving.

I now have 3 different blades for the Tajimas, the 300mm 12 TPI, 265mm TPI and 250mm 18 TPI blades. I have 2 handles now and will buy another soon, so I can have all 3 difference blades in their own handle instead of switching.

I suggest giving the Tajimas a try, they are not expensive and cuts very well. I don't think, for the price of about AUD $20, any new Western style saw will give you the same quality.

Might be worth a shot.

Cheers

GUNN

Originally Posted by RayG

A few weeks back I went beserk and bought half a dozen brand new plastic handled hard-point tenon saws just to see if they were really as bad as they looked, sorry to say they were actually worse than I thought. The only one that was usable was a Spear and Jackson, and even that was nowhere near the performance of a 19th Century tenon saw used for comparison. The effort they put into automating the production was completely wasted, because the design was simply wrong.

Hi Ray,

Is the Bahco PrizeCut Tenon one of the saws you experimented with? I do own one but totally regret it. Too bad for me, it cannot be returned even after just 1 cut.

Seems to me, none of the current plastic handles Hardpoint tenon saws are worth their salt. I guess you get what you pay for.

I'll be looking out for a decent old saw from the Sunday market and return it to life.

Cheers

GUNN

G'day mate,
Japanese [pull] saws are pretty good, and have a very thin blade. I bought a couple recently; one is a cheapy from Bunnings and a true Japanese one from a specality store; and like you I have to learn to use them.

A bit of yarn; I bought some timber from bunnings that was a little too long to fit in the car, so I put the timber on the gas bottle grate and cut it down with a pull saw. A couple of blokes came past and were impressed as they have never seen one before. One now has a pull saw

I was watching the ABC programme "Grand Designs" awhile back and a bloke there was using large pull saw the shape of a garden pruning saw, but the blade was about 60 to 70 cm. It seemed work as fast as a chain saw but I bet he was not cutting Red Gun or Iron Bark!!

Cheers; get a good pull saw and have fun making gourmet saw dust.

Sawtooth,

Is the cheapy Bunnings pull saw like the one here, Rapid Pull 265? Or do you have the G-saw?

I bought the Rapid Pull 265 from Bunnings and it is a great starter Japanese Pull Saw. They cut pretty quickly and the finish is not as rough. I am thinking of creating a straight handle for them, maybe using some hardwood dowels, to allow for longer strokes.

Cheers

GUNN

G'day agian
Mine looks like the 265 although the only name on mine is "Tajima" Maybe a copy of something better. Cost under $30. Good for trying the pull idea.

Another yarn: Although pull saws are very common on cattle properties and stations these days for horn tipping, I believe my Grandfather was one of the early cattlemen to see the benefit in a pull saw when taking the sharp points of cattle horns. Just took a while for the following generations to see the benefits of pull saws in the shed.

Cheers

As an old carpenter/joiner I spent my youth with hand tools. Saws in particular need to be sharpened and set exact. I would buy a new panel saw to start with. When you are holding the saw making a cut point your index finger down the saw, and hold the handle so the saw is doing the work not you.. If I see someone grabbing the handle, I think he is no carpenter
les

Originally Posted by dynoforce

Hi Ray,

Is the Bahco PrizeCut Tenon one of the saws you experimented with? I do own one but totally regret it. Too bad for me, it cannot be returned even after just 1 cut.

Seems to me, none of the current plastic handles Hardpoint tenon saws are worth their salt. I guess you get what you pay for.

I'll be looking out for a decent old saw from the Sunday market and return it to life.

Cheers

GUNN

Hi Gunn,

No, the Bahco Prize Cut wasn't one of the tenon saws I tried, but I doubt it would be much different. I should quickly add that the hardpoint panel saws are not too bad. I was just looking at the el-cheapo tenon saws, and the main problem is they are mostly set up (poorly) for cross-cut. With way too much set and uncomfortable handles. The Spear and Jackson hardpoint was set up rip tooth, and had a soft plastic insert in the handle.

Value for money the Tajima pull saw is much better, although I personally don't like pull saws.

Regards
Ray

I generally buy all my hand tools from ebay or local flea markets (boot sales). I have been hand sharpening my saws for about 20 years and I almost have it right. I have an old Seargent brand saw clamp and I use Japanese feather files (be sure the teeth go around the edge of the file).
First, I make the tops of the teeth even with a second-cut flat file. Lately, I have marked the backs of the teeth with a black permanent marker to allow me to see just what I am filing off. The top of the saw clamp is about elbow height. When I am done sharpening I take a fine grit sharpening stone and with one end of the stone laying against the side of the blade and one end just over the side tips I dress the tips of the teeth by sliding the stone forward along the blade. I have also used a very fine file to do this. This last step makes the tips even and keeps any odd shaped tooth from hanging up. This also reduces the set of the saw and makes a narrower kerf which the blade will track in once you have a proper start to the cut.