Thread: Hand saw

Hi 44Ronin.
A good dovetail saw, a good coping saw (eclipse are a good old one) and a nice back saw (Tenon Saw).

Then if it's only thin stuff tyou are cutting maybe a Panel Saw then on to a Cross Cut Saw and for a real good arm workout a Rip Saw.


Cheers


Steve

Originally Posted by toolbagsPLUS

Hi 44Ronin.
A good dovetail saw, a good coping saw (eclipse are a good old one) and a nice back saw (Tenon Saw).

Then if it's only thin stuff tyou are cutting maybe a Panel Saw then on to a Cross Cut Saw and for a real good arm workout a Rip Saw.


Cheers


Steve

Thanks steve, but to be more specific.......what size, tpi, handle style is good for a beginner dovetail saw.,

Originally Posted by 44Ronin

Thanks steve, but to be more specific.......what size, tpi, handle style is good for a beginner dovetail saw.,

Hi again the dovertailer I use mainly is about 20tpi, coping saw is as you buy the blades.
Try not to get caught as I did, I asked for a dovetail saw and was sold the one on the bottom. Which IS a Dovetail saw, but not real successful for Fine work.

Still it does get used from time to time where as the smaller one gets used almost daily. Pax it the brand I think i bought it from Carbitec years ago.


Cheers

Steve

If you want to learn about saws, The Traditional Tools Group http://www.tttg.org.au is running a saw sharpening workshop in late May. the website provides details.

Cheers Peter

Traditional Japanese Good saws for boxes.

As Pommyphil says - Japanese style saws are very gratifying to use if you are a newbie to handsaws, they cut fast & clean, and work well right out of the box. My main complaints are that they feather the line you are trying to follow (push saws feather at the back, which is usually less critical). They are also next to impossible to sharpen for an amateur, & I hate the thought of chucking away all that metal just because of dull teeth. It's also said that the teeth are fragile, & can break on our harder woods, but that may not be a problem if you are using the more traditional cabinet grades of woods.

Of course I'm biased, having pushed saws for at least 50 years. I've tried pull saws, but apart from a flush-cut & a keyhole saw (for both of which pull-cutting is ideal), can't seem to get on with them as well as with my traditional 'Western" saws.

Advising someone on what they need to start with is pretty-near impossible, because you will have to use a few different saws to find what suits you & what you are making. For cutting 9mm thick timber, you need a fairly fine toothed saw - rough rule of thumb is to have sufficient teeth in the cut that the saw doesn't 'bite' too hard & jamb (somewhere around 4-6 minimum is often quoted). However, it depends very much on the wood you're cutting, & how experienced you are - you can use a much more aggressive saw, when practised. By aggressive, I mean with a higher rake angle, less set, & fewer teeth in the cut.

For example, I cut a lot of dovetails in wood 12-16mm thick, & use a saw that has 12 teeth per inch (or each tooth point is roughly 2mm apart, however you wish to look at it). It is filed as a rip saw (higher rake & 'chisel-point' sharpening) with minimal set. For cutting with the grain, down to no more than 20mm, it is very quick & clean, but it is a bit hard to start if you aren't used to it, and you can't 'steer' it other than the slightest whisker, because of the fine set. That means you have to cut with the saw at the right angle from the beginning - just a matter of practise.

I use an entirely different saw for small cross-cutting jobs. It has 15 tpi, and is filed cross-cut (more 'back' rake on the teeth, and filed with 'fleam', which brings each tooth to a point). It also has a little more set, allowing a bit of steering in a deeper cut.

Any cheap back-saw you buy now will be sharpened as a sort of mongrel pattern; probably with the rake of a crosscut, but with straight-across (rip) teeth, because it's easier to make machines do that. It will also have too much set for ripping, which is ok for a beginner because it's easier to steer as you wander back & forth over your cut line. The good news is, they are cheap, and the metal in them is usually fine, so they can be turned into very good tools, eventually. You can start mucking around with sharpening & setting and learn how to do it. A good little saw is such a joy - I can still remember the first time I used a well-sharpened & well-balanced little saw, it was a revelation in what a saw can do! It's just like the first time you use a really sharp, well-tuned plane.

Cheers,

Like Ian, my dovetail saw has a lower-than-usual TPI (13 ppi, 12 tpi). I prefer to use it rip, although Derek has posted elsewhere some good sense about why you might prefer to have a slight cross-cut fleam on the blade.

I also have a rip-saw at 6ppi, cross cuts at 8 and 10 ppi, and a tenon saw at 13ppi (rip). I have a new (rubbish) tenon saw with cross-cut teeth, that I hope to replace with a decent old disston or similar down the track.

If you are a member of finewoodworking, you might want to read about Tage Frid and his advocacy of bow saws for most common woodworking tasks. I have not yet used the European style bow saw that he uses, but I plan on getting one at some stage.

I would strongly suggest you try the second hand market, and that way you might be able to find the TPI, style and cross/rip combination that you prefer.

Finally on handle style - I don't like the "gentlemen's" style handles (the straight one, top in the photo from ToolbagsP's post). Mostly I prefer the standard style of handle, such as that in his dovetail saw at the bottom, because it assists more with keeping the cut straight with your arm/shoulder. The round handles can be more difficult to control in that respect (at least until you get used to them). Again - I'd try it out if you can and see which one you prefer.

Are you sure you want to cut box-joints with hand-saws? If you're going to all that effort anyway, why not just to dovetails?

Cheerio,
sCORCH