Thread: Hand dovetail aids

They look good Derek.

I use a bevel gauge, I have some marks on my bench to help set it up for 1:6 or 1:8. Probably the most tedius part using my method is marking the ends with a square - it seems to take forever!

That is where the marker would be handy. In reality it would only save a few minutes. The boredom can lead to sloppy marking out resulting in a sloppy joint ......... swearing, throwing the joint away.

There are other marking jigs available, have you tried any of the others Derek and if so, what helped you decide on this particular one?

I'm much the same .........I've always had my eye on the Veritas Dovetail Markers, have U used these Derek? what makes this particular one more handy than most? ...............Pic's please

regards Lou

Lou

Wood Borers' comments gave me pause for thought. It would be interesting to share what aids we use in cutting dovetails (marking and tools). I will have a look at what I have at home tonight and report later. With regards the Veritas dovetail marker I must ask "which one" because there are a few now, and not all available in Australia. They have one that is similar in function to the Woodjoy square here. This also wraps aound the timber, which helps enormously in both scribing accurate lines as well as the ease of doing so. I'll say more about this later when I compare these types of squares against the traditional ones.

Regards from Perth

Derek

You are correct Derek,

It would make an interesting thread where could all benefit from each other's experiences and techniques.

For the sake of handcut dovetail lurkers, we need to emphasise though that anybody can do handcut dovetails with the most basic tools. You don't need any fancy gear apart from a some sort of tenon saw, some chisels, a bevel gauge, a square, a marking gauge, pencil, mallet, vice and a clamp.

It is a pet topic of mine especially proving to people that anyone can make a handcut dovetail with about 1 hour's tuition and demonstration and another hour mucking around themselves. Their first won't be a showpiece but it can be acceptable.

I mark mine out with a bevel guage. I've got the same setup as WB - a 1:8 line on the bench. Set the blade in the middle somewhere and it can do both sides of the angle from either end of the work piece by flipping it over. I'm doing pins first now because I'm cheating a bit using the tablesaw and the bandsaw for the cuts (ala Bob Smalser's article).

I mark the baseline on all faces of the pin and tailboards with a marking guage and knife. Then I clamp the pin boards outside face to outside face in a vice. I layout the centreline of each pin and mark the width of each pin's throat on the end grain where the two boards meet. Then I use the bevel guage to scribe back to the outer edge (actually the inside face) of each board. Then I use a 90 deg. square to run the line down the inside face of each board to the baseline. Then I take the boards out of the vice and use the square again to scribe down to the baseline on the outside face. Flip end to end and repeat for the other two sets of pins.

I cut all the pins on the tablesaw, cutting shy of the baseline, and then clean up to the baseline with a chisel. I undercut the throat so that it is slightly concave which avoids problems with fitting.

I clamp an offcut across the baseline on the inside face of a tail board. I use this to line up one of the pinboards and then transcribe the position of the tails onto the tail board face with a sharp pencil. Repeat for each set of tails - taking care to match each set of tails to the coinciding set of pins. I mark the end grain of both pins and tails with a number from 1 to 4 so that I can match them later. That's the only layout I need on the tail board because I cut them on the bandsaw.

I cut the tails with the bandsaw - leaving the pencil lines for a nice tight fit - again just shy of the baseline then cut to the baseline with a chisel, undercutting again.

The handcut dovetails I have done have been rather ordinary and take ages. I have always done them tails first because that's the way I learned. For the moment, the tablesaw and bandsaw method is a good enough balance of machine precision and handtool work that I'm getting results I'm happy with and satisfying the neanderthal impulses as well.

I'll keep practicing with the handsaw but at the moment I can't get crisp enough cuts for my fussy nature. Nothing worse than a perfectionist incapable of perfection

Originally Posted by silentC

Nothing worse than a perfectionist incapable of perfection

Mate there are lots of people like that - mostly they are called auditors

Yer soz Derek

To be more specific is the 2*2" anodised aluminium markers as per 2004 Carbatec Catalogue pg: 70 looks ssssssssssooooooooo simple and easy to use even a Dolt like me id get it right

Regards Lou

Originally Posted by DaveInOz

Mate there are lots of people like that - mostly they are called auditors

In an earlier incarnation I worked for the Commonwealth Government (Department of Finance) in Canberra. One of the old hands defined an auditor as 'one who entered the field after the battle and bayoneted the wounded'.

Cheers

5T

Needing all the aids I can get, I use the Veritas dovetail guide. The one which clamps onto the workpiece and guides the saw by way of a magnet.
Attempt one yielded a quite acceptable joint.
Attempt two, a bit sloppy, I wasn't careful enough lining up the saw.
Attempt three, too tight, (read above)

After that it was all Goldilocks (just right). Maybe one day, when I'm game I'll just use the guide as a markout tool, but probably not.

Outback

The Veritas dovetail guide is an extremely good saw guide when cutting dovetails. But, like cutting dovetails without a guide, it relies on user skills to cut to a line. It does the hard bit - cutting straight - but you still need to mark accurately and cut to these marks.

I think it is a fine tool for the aspiring dovetailer. Perhaps one of these days I will post a primer on using one.

Keep trying.

Regards from Perth

Derek

20 odd years ago I bought a ELU dovetail jig. I started knocking out dovetails faster and endlessly more "perfect" than I (or my Dad) could do by hand. I used it to bulld lots of drawers. What I like most about it is that I learnt some things.

I learnt to use my router to cut the pins, mark my tails from the pins, and cut them on the bandsaw. Okay, they'll never be as perfect (sorry, too perfect) as a fully jigged dovetail, but you can make your tails narrower than any dovetait bit. For me, it's the thinness of the pins which gives jigged dovetails away, and detracts from the job.

Have one little used ELU dovetail jig for sale. Little use. Going cheap.

A few months back i purchased a Large Saddle Square and both Dovetail Saddle Markers from Veritas.

They are very handy for marking out all things dovetail and square.

I got mine posted (by air) direct from Veritas for less that $10 (from memory) ariving on my door steep in less than two weeks.
With the total cost being about $50.

And the AUD is pretty strong currently.

I went with the Saddle Dovetail marker as both it's angled edge and it's straight edge are nice and long.


For those of you with the Veritas Dovetail saw guide, do you need to cleen up with a chisel after sawing?
And could you use a Royoba (double sided Japanese saw) with it?

Ben.

For those of you with the Veritas Dovetail saw guide, do you need to cleen up with a chisel after sawing?

No.

Obviously the saw with the most teeth/least set will produce the smoothest cut. The Veritas dovetail (Japanese style) saw leaves a smooth wall.

And could you use a Royoba (double sided Japanese saw) with it?

Yes.

You can use any saw as long as the blade is roughly 125mm wide (top-to-bottom). I have experimented with a Kataba and a Disston tenon saw. Both worked well.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I have included below a selection of some of the tools I use, or have used, when cutting dovetails. Please note that you do NOT need all these tools. You need very few: a couple of chisels, a square, and a saw. What happens, of course, is that tools breed - you end up adding more items to do the task just that little bit easier or better (especially when you just do this for fun!).

Here is another picture of the Woodjoy dovetail square (pic 1). It functions in the same manner as the Veritas dovetail saddle in Ben's earlier post. The advantage of these squares is that they combine two squares in one. The other big advantage of the Woodjoy is that it does not obscure the markings for the tail as the others do (since they run along the top of the timber edge).

Picture 2 has examples of various alternative squares (all made redundant by the Woodjoy). These include two Marples dovetail squares as well as a shop built one. There is also a Veritas saddle square and a Starrett 4" combination square.

An extremely useful tool for spacing the dovetails is a pair of dividers. These may be used to duplicate the width of tails, or to space the tails (pic 3). Rob Cosman describes this in his dovetailing videos. It is indeed an amazingly easy and accurate system.

In picture 4 I have included a selection of the chisels I prefer for dovetailing. The important feature here is that these chisels have very narrow sidewalls so that they can get into the angled walls. It should be pointed out that I prefer to cut out the waste with a jigsaw rather than chop it out with a chisel. At most I will use a bronze carver’s mallet to tap the chisel. The one here made by Veritas and I have covered it with rawhide (from dog chew bones!) to protect the chisel ends. The chisels here include a Berg paring chisels (1/4” – 1” ground at 20 degrees), and a Japanese dovetail chisel (I have a 1/8” and ¼”), two Crown skew chisels, and my shop built dovetail chisel. Other items in this picture include a Veritas marking gauge and Japanese marking knife. A mechanical pencil provides the sharpest line.

The last picture (5) is a selection of dovetail saws. From the top is a LN Independence (cuts aggressively, best suited to hardwood), a restored John Cotterill (less aggressive, better in softwood), and a Crown gents saw (preferred for very fine cuts). There is also a Japanese Dozuki (ideal in softwood), and two jig saws, one a vintage jeweller’s saw for small lengths and the other a cheap (but light) fret saw for wider panels.

I hope some of this is useful in making decisions about choosing tools for hand cutting dovetails.

Regards from Perth

Derek