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Thread: Hand saw files.
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26th September 2014, 09:45 PM #1Intermediate Member
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Hand saw files.
Hello everyone.
I just want to know where can I purchase hand saw files in Aus? Some nice fine ones, I do hand lots of tenon saw.
I can get them sharpened for $15 a saw, but I would like to try it myself one day.
Thank you
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26th September 2014, 10:02 PM #2
an interesting question
anybody got an answer?regards
Nick
veni, vidi, tornavi
Without wood it's just ...
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26th September 2014, 10:22 PM #3
Hand saw files.
The short answer is: don't ask, don't research it, don't bring it up in conversation and definitely don't buy a range of saw files from various suppliers in the vain hope of finding decent ones. If you ignore this advice prepare to spend more time looking for files than using them.
The long answer is in the sticky saw file test survey at the top of the forum.
Cheers...I'll just make the other bits smaller.
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26th September 2014, 10:57 PM #4Senior Member
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Having sharpened a total of two saws in my life, I bought a couple of Bahco files from Mitre10 for about $11 each. Given the amount of sharpening I have done and am likely to do on a yearly basis, they'll do me (one file has done two saws so far, so I'm ahead of the game if it costs $15 to get a saw sharpened).
Cheers, Mike
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27th September 2014, 12:14 AM #5Deceased
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For 10tpi and above the VALLORBE THREE SQUARE NEEDLE FILE in Cut #2 or Cut #3 in the 18 cm length is what I use. Codes 10-342-000 & 10-343-000. Isaac Smith from http://www.blackburntools.com/new-to...l#joinery-saws uses these same files on his backsaws. I purchase them by the boxed dozen. By doing so you can wrangle the cost for each file down to around $10.00 to $11.00 each. Last purchase was about 6 months ago via the online telephone contacts. They are a top quality swiss file with very sharp corner edges.
Stewie;
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27th September 2014, 10:18 AM #6
Hi Nads,
For 14-15 tpi and finer, I also use needle files. However, I like to use a finer, #4 cut for sharpening. That's the finest cut that is readily available, and it does a nicer job of sharpening than the coarser cuts, imo, but still cuts very fast, just a couple of light strokes takes off a lot of metal! The 180mm size is a bit better to use than the 150mm (same tpi for the same cut #), but both work for me.
The only reliable brand of needle files I've found is the Glardon Vallorbe that Stewie pointed to. These are sold by a few different mobs, but I get mine from Australian Jeweller's Supplies (shops in capital cities plus on-line). The best price I could wrangle from the (Brisbane) shop was $12 a head, buying by the dozen (i.e. a full box). I bought the last lot about a month ago, & had to wait for new stock to arrive, so perhaps that's the new price, or a fluctuation in the dollar, or whatever....
For larger-toothed saws, I've been using Pferd files for the last little while. They came out as among the best & most consistent in the 'great file test'. They are not brilliant, but seem to be the best of a bad bunch. Their down side is they aren't easy to get in your average hardware store, & Pferd won't sell direct. To buy them individually, you have to go to one of the big suppliers like Blackwoods, & take pot luck with the sizes they happen to keep in stock, which is very limited in the stores I tried. The alternative is to contact Pferd, and ask them for someone near you who are agents. I did that, & they put me onto a small place that was extremely helpful. Buying by the box, I got my last lot for about $9 each for 5" ESTs, which is as good as it gets, I think.
I get about half a dozen major sharpenings of 9-10" backsaws out of the needle files, & quite a few more if just 'touching up' saws that are a bit dull but otherwise in good shape. I get much less out of the Pferds - about 3 saws if lucky. It takes an entire file to tooth & sharpen a new 14" 10 tpi saw, for example. But you don't sharpen your own saws purely for economic reasons. While you will save a bit in $$s (if you are an amateur & don't have to book your time!), the real pay-off is that once you become reasonably proficient at it, your saws will suddenly become accurate & efficient tools that are a pleasure to use, rather than instruments of torture....
Cheers,IW
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27th September 2014, 12:08 PM #7
What they said above
Vallorbe files
I tried some others when I started making saws ,
And found the vallorbe to be the ones to use.
That's three now that recommend them?
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27th September 2014, 12:09 PM #8
Interesting Ian. Have you found any duds amongst the Pferds? The box of 5" Ultra Slims that I procured for the testing seem to have all been good - in complete contrast to the 6" which were all bad.
However, because of the lack of taper the 6" are pretty good for sharpening floats.......but one float (one sided) eats a couple of files.
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27th September 2014, 12:13 PM #9Deceased
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What Ian suggests with the #4 Cut has merit. But IMO the saw plate gauge on the backsaw does has some bearing on the choice of Cut you go with.. For 0.015 plate #4 Cut is a good choice to make. When you start moving up to 0.020 & 0.025 gauge then you may find you can strike a more cost effective balance to select Cuts #2 or #3. With saw sharpening files its wear on the edges of the file that will break down 1st rendering the rest of the file useless for further sharpening work. There may be some merit in suggesting the following as a general guide to assist you when making the determination on the ideal cut with a 3 square file. 0.015 plate / #4 Cut ; 0.020 plate / #3 Cut ; 0.025 plate / #2 Cut.
Ian and I can only offer you some advise in relation to our own experiences. You must still explore what will suit you with your own saw sharpening work.
Stewie;
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27th September 2014, 06:42 PM #10
So far so good, Brett. I did take a punt on the 5"s. They are doing the job, but as I said, not brilliantly. At least the blanks seem to have been smoothed a little bit before toothing, so the teeth are tolerably sharp across the faces, but some corners are a bit rougher than ideal. I would say they are about half as good as the Nicholsons & Wiltshires of 25 years ago. And I don't think that's all due to the rose tinting in the retrospectoscope?
Cheers,IW
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27th September 2014, 07:07 PM #11SENIOR MEMBER
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This is a global problem!. The question was for handsaw files, and then mentioned a tenon saw... Some additional notes to what is said above on sources for backsaw files:
Firstly, avoid Nicholson (sold by Bunnings - who used to sell Bahco, but I guess Apex offered a better margin), made in Mexico or Brazil. Nicholson opened their first Mexico plant around 1970 (all USA production finally ceased in 2011/2012). May be that in the early Mexico years, standards were maintained. I have some Kearney & Foot (Nicholson brand, not used for 20 years) 6" XXSlim made in Mexico waiting for me in the USA, where I will shortly spend a couple of months (my sons live in Chicago and NY); I will bring the files back in early January. They will be interesting to test because they are > 20 years old. The current Nicholson catalogue includes needle files (limited range), does not say where they are made, but at retail level (Amazon, Enco) they are Swiss priced - I will not be testing these!
Bahco are no longer widely available in Oz, especially in finer saw files, but are generally considered to have reasonable quality control, made in Portugal. Bahco acquired Oberg in 1975 (Oberg started making files in Portugal in 1970, and all production was moved there by 1992); Sandvik acquired Bahco in 1991, and sold all their tool businesses to Snap-on in 1999. Sandvik branded (sometimes with all three names branded!) files are NOS (1991-1999) and probably ok. Oberg is still used by Snap-on as a co-brand with Bahco. Amazon sell Bahco needle files - good price, quality?, anyway I am picking up some. You will need to approach a Bahco stockist http://www.bahco.com.au/home#stockists to see whay they can get in for you. However the only catalogue backsaw files are 5" and 6" Extra Slim (and Mill files for jointing), also 140mm (Dead smooth = Cut 4) and 160mm (Smooth = cut 2) 3-Square needle files - these might be worthwhile testing.
Forum poster extraordinaire Fencefurniture organises group buys of Liogier saw files (amongst other things!), PM him for details, remember there can be a long wait for delivery from France, and quality at this stage may be uneven.
Jim Davey http://www.jimdavey-planes-sharpening.com/page1.aspx sells 4" and 5" Double Extra Slim Grobert saw files at very reasonable prices - note these are Made in India, with all that entails, ie variable quality.
Vallorbe - The needle file prices Stewie achieved are great value (I will pursue these myself)
Pferd are made in India, but they do at least have an Oz subsidiary. Usual caveats apply, as said by Ian and Brett. As Ian says ok for hand saws (10 ppi and larger).
That's about it... except for flea markets, eBay, clearout auctions, and clear-out dealers (from a dealer I picked up a number of NOS in the box Wiltshire 12" Smooth half round files awhile back for $4 ea). Whilst there is great value in buying 2nd hand files/rasps, and acid-sharpening them - there is NO value in 2nd hand saw files (except for turning them into skew chisels).
Keeping a weather eye on eBay is worthwhile - I have secured a number of boxes of NOS files off USA eBay recently - but postage to Oz is the killer (I used my USA addresses, so no problem). I suspect I have reached my weight limit with the files and a few other things purchased. Now I need to keep SWMBO out of the shops. I picked up 2 boxes of TOMÉ FÈTEIRA 0 Cut 160mm needle files from eBay UK a few months ago for £18 + £3 postage to Oz (total cost, therefore about A$1.50 ea). Work well for initial toothing, need to be 2+ Cut for sharpening though.
eBay Oz is sometimes useful - I picked up a few boxes of 8" Slim Taper Öberg made in Sweden files on eBay Oz for less than $2 ea (probably do me for filing 7 ppi and larger teeth for some time) - these are quality NOS files (probably > 40 years old).
There are NOS stocks out there... just a question of finding them. Look for Nicholson, Wiltshire, Simonds (closed USA factories in 2006), any British files (not made for a long time unfortunately, still run across PS Stubs from time to time), Heller, anything made in USA or Switzerland.
By the way, for your tenon saw the files to look for are something like (the next level of coarser file is in brackets):
10 ppi - 5-6" Extra Slim (4.5-5" Slim)
11 ppi - 7" Double Extra Slim (6" Extra Slim, 4-4.5" Slim)
12 ppi - 6" Double Extra Slim (5" Extra Slim, 4" Slim)
13 ppi - 5" Double Extra Slim (4" Extra Slim)
14 ppi - 5" Double Extra Slim (4" Extra Slim)
15 ppi - 4" Double Extra Slim (4" Extra Slim)
16 ppi - Needle file (4" Double Extra Slim)
You can go for bigger files - up to a point, but will get rounded gullets. Having said that, Paul Sellers uses coarser files than the above suggestions, and gets rounded gullets (check out his videos), does not seem to worry him - uses Bahco.
Cheers
Peter
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29th September 2014, 12:26 AM #12Deceased
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Hi Peter. Totally agree on the early Nicholson and Wiltshire taper files. This is my collection. Apart from the box of early Heller files which has only got 8 files in it, the rest of the boxes are all full and in near new condition. The file sizes for the Nicholson's you can see on the end labels. The box of Wiltshire files on the far right of the photo are 5 inch double extra slim taper.
When I purchased them a number of years ago I had good intentions of using them for sharpening saws. Nowadays its seems a better option to not use them and keep them in their original boxes.
Stewie;
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29th September 2014, 01:14 AM #13Deceased
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Here's a link to an ebay seller in the U.S. for full boxes of saw sharpening taper files.
If you click on his completed listings you get a good indication on the final bidding price.
http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/azmica904...p2047675.l2562
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30th September 2014, 10:44 PM #14SENIOR MEMBER
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Stewie, I have some of those double cut Nicholson as well! I seem to recall getting them on eBay, but the memory... I intend using my files, and hopefully have enough to last me out. Anyway your post motivated me to actually check on my stock of files for back saws, ie 10ppi and smaller. Interesting accumulation of mostly NOS, but some recently made.
Firstly an analysis of matching files to ppi count - on the basis of using a file that is 2 x the length of the back of the tooth (in the following case with a 90⁰ rake - the lengths get lower as the rake move back):
saw
ppiFile Width Required mm Regularʺ Slimʺ Extra Slimʺ Double-Extra Slimʺ Three Square APʺ Three Square SPʺ Needle Files mm 3½ 23.46 12 12 10 4½ 16.76 8 10 10 7,8 5½ 13.03 7 8 10 8 6 6 11.73 6 8 8,10 8 6 6½ 10.66 5 7 8 6 6 7 9.77 4½ 6,7 7,8 6 6 8 8.38 4 5½,6 7 5 5 9 7.34 3½ 5 6.7 7,8 4 4 10 6.51 3½ 4½ 5½ 7 4 4 11 5.87 3 4 5 6,7 12 5.33 3 4 4½ 5½, 6 13 4.89 3½ 4 5 14 4.51 3½ 4 4½,5 3 200 15 4.19 3 4 4,4½ 3 180 16 3.91 3 4 3 160 17 3.67 4 3 140
The 3-Square files - American (AP) and Swiss (SP) Pattern do not seem to have consistent sizes across makers - this is a general guide. Be interesting to test how the gullets change across the different files of equivalent face width.
I have files (probably too many of some sizes) that cover all those ppi sizes of saws pretty well (my working 3½ ppi 28" rip - the others are very old museum items - really does need a 12" file). What I do not have much of are 4" XXSlim, and only 4 dozen assorted cuts of needle files; I have no 200mm needle files, I might get a few locally to test them.
I have purchased one box from this seller at a reasonable price (delivered to my USA address), unfortunately he is well known and there are lots of people watching his lots, so I do not expect to make any other purchases from him! While I am in Chicago, I miust try and see Slav and see what saw files he has available - he had a lot of machinists files when last I visited his workshop/Aladdins cave of files and other tools.
Cheers Peter
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1st October 2014, 12:23 AM #15Deceased
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Hi Peter. Thank you for posting the file chart. I just printed this off and it will come in handy for later referencing.
If you trial out the 180mm length Vallorbe Needle Files, be prepared to be challenged on the file width commendation listed on the file chart for 10 - 12ppi. I cant recall what the exact width on the needle files is but you will need to bear in mind that the edges on these files come to an extremely sharp, so you do achieve some extra play on usable width.
I hear what your saying with the ebay seller. He does have a high profile with his sales. But to fair the final prices he's getting on the full boxes of taper files is about on par what you would expect to pay from other sources. The cost of shipping from the Us. to Aus. is always a prohibitive barrier to overcome, but if you can get a discount through buying 2 or more boxes its not so bad . The same can not be said on the final bids he's getting for his hand saws. Way above what I would be prepared to pay.
Having a chat to Slav sound a worthwhile thing to do.
Stewie;
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