Thread: Hand Plane

Neil, I hope the advice didn't come across as harsh or gotcha-like. when I started buying steel and making chisels and knives and plane irons, I remember thinking "well, there's W1, A2, O1, and such.....but there's all kinds of other things, like O2, O7, A6, W2 through who knows what -W112, etc"

I thought "I'm going to find the secret ones they have that we just don't get because nobody uses them"

And then learned like with D3 - ahh...wildly different alloy, and of the same family, but not suitable for angles below about 50 or 60 degrees, or more.

There actually wasn't much of use that isn't already well documented on knife forums. But the diemakers probably think a lot of the steels we like are worthless, too. In their view, they may be.

...

that and some of the steels we think of as relatively recent, like A2, are more like 1925 new - or almost 100 years old, which leads us to ponder then why are they suddenly in woodworking tools. There's an answer to that - they're decent, but too, much more technically easy to heat treat than even O1, and especially the file steels and other water hardening stuff. the plain steels take simple routines, but they take skill to deal with during and after - skill that doesn't exist at the Lie Nielsen and Lee Valleys.

Even here, like Ontario knives - not sure if you guys ever had those retailed down there - it's Ontario NY and not Canada - 1095CV was used for the longest time for Kabar and then later whatever companies merged into Ontario. They employed a contractor who helped them figure out how to make the steel both very keen, but also tough enough. He used salt pot setups or something of that sort (molten salt the steel goes in - super nifty for fast even heat, allowing a lot of flexibility and skill with control). they decided to part ways in favor of something complicated that allowed low skill labor, and couldn't get the steel right and thus dropped back to 1075, a simple steel that isn't as good, and then eventually went out of business.

And a trivial thing involved in that - we have 1095 in saws and shim stock. And there is 1095 water hardening bar. 1095CV that's in kabar and other knives bears little relation to it -it's actually a steel with a chromium and vanadium addition -one that we can't get at retail.

TMI, I guess! I was bummed out to find out there isn't a whole multi dozen optioned universe that I could try out and maybe find an easter egg. For chisels, that turned out to be 26c3 in flat stock. In round, I'm still batting zero on getting a 1.25% carbon steel.

OK, no worries, Neil. I have plenty of scraps of 1084 that will be big enough. I've been getting excellent results with it, all the planes above have 1084 blades & I'm more than happy with their performance, so while it won't be a relict from the same era as your plane, it should be quite usable.

If you searched long & hard, you would possibly find a genuine blade (there's a mob in the UK that specialises in antique & NOS blades), but probably at a price that would make your eyes water. Some old blades are excellent, but some are not so good, so buying old blades sight-unseen is a bit of a lottery imo. And of course, if you ever stumble on a 'genuine' blade, you'll have one for show & one to use.....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by auscab

Attachment 531806

Rob

That Spiers stamp on the lever cap is an example of how he put that upside down (to the way most other plane makers were doing it) on some of his early planes. The BUCK stamp on the lever cap of my little thumb plane is also upside down and one of the very few that I have ever seen done that way. I think that further confirms that mine is an early Spiers. He would have added the BUCK stamp for them and done it with that orientation the way he was doing his other lever caps at the time.

Yes Neil, Ive got a few Spiers marks the same in my collection. Upside down. Some the normal way up. If we could get good old Mr Spiers back for a talk for one day the questions would be going on all night. Id love to know why he didn't bother which way up the stamp went. Id like to hear the story about how he went about buying his his BRW in. Imagine being able to ask him about the other plane makers. Specially Robert Towell and the influence R Towell may have had on him, if any. He may have only seen his planes and not met him? Robert Towell was doing lever caps at one stage not in bronze but in steel and this was before Spiers I think. Towell was busy from the 1820s on. Spiers started in the 1840s

I have a similar situation to you with a Rare plane missing important parts. A Towell missing its steel stamped lever cap and blade. One of my restoration jobs waiting for me. The top two pics are same plane and is one of the 5, I think roughly? That are known to exist. Not my Plane.

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Bottom one is my one next to a Spiers wedged Mitre.
Quite an interesting plane . Apart from the amazing lever cap. They are bow ended at both ends and the join at the back is a silver soldered or brazed scarf joint. This was found in the dust on a shed floor in Melbourne and sold on eBay. After I got it and chatting to the seller he went back for a second search of the shed for the lever cap but it wasn't there.
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Rob

Rob, you pull the most amazing rabbits out of the hat at times - a Rbt. Towell, no less! I think you have all-time boasting rights to have this one in your hot little hands. According to my book, Towell stamped his name on the inside of the wooden bun infill because he was a wooden plane maker to start with, & his stamps were for wood rather than metal - is that the case with this one?

I have seen pics of a couple of Towell mitre planes (or maybe two pics of the same plane, they really are rare!), & iirc, both used a bridge & wedge. I always thought the lever cap didn't make its appearance until at least a decade or so after Spiers went into production, but don't quote me on that. I doubt anyone knows for sure when LCs were first used on infills. So my guess would be the holes in the sides were for a swivelling bridge rather than a LC, and someone managed to bust the bridge, which might explain why that Heath Robinson setup to hold a blade was cobbled up. I'm guessing the owner at the time lacked the skills & imagination to make a workable replacement bridge? However, I could be out to lunch on that & maybe it did have a LC originally?

Making & fitting a LC would be easy enough, but if it did have a LC, it was most likely cast bronze, so to maintain "authenticity" you should make the replacement from bronze. If you are up for a challenge you could cast one, something I've long wanted to try but not had the opportunity or courage to do. Fabricating from a lump of bronze would be my alternative, but bronze is a bit different to saw & file than brass (depending on the particular alloy, I suppose), so not sure how successful I'd be.

Now you've shown us this rare beauty, you are henceforth compelled to proceed with the restoration......


Cheers,
Iasn

I hadn't thought of looking under the wood Ian. I was sitting at my bench reading your reply and quickly got the plane body out and had a look. I have held it and thought deeply about it so many times since getting it I cant believe I didn't think of that before. One of the few planes of this type that exists was stamped under the wood on the brass inside it was stamped Buck with an address. A number and then Tottenham crt rd. Probably stamped by Robert Towell.
My one just had some lay out lines inside, what looks to me to be a pre 1840 screw holding the front BRW in place and some cross grained gouge marks across the solid BRW rear piece. Nice but no name stamp.
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I'm convinced 100 % it had the same lever cap as the two pictures in my previous post so Ill be making one of those when I get around to it. There is another one the same that showed up that has BRW handles attached to the same type of lever cap. I could do that too. It'd be a great thing to try out as I'd be using the plane with what ever I do.

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Rob.

Pity there's no name stamp Rob. Towell made planes for other people to sell & didn't always stamp them with his own name, according to what I've read, so the absence of a name doesn't rule anything out or in, but certainly (some) early Towell mitres (& others) were stamped on the end-grain of the bun on the throat side.

Surely those handles on the plane in the pic you just posted can't be original? They just don't have an "1800s" look to them and afaik, the only well-known mitre plane that had a semblance of a 'handle' was the much later Stanley's #9, which has a shaft with a knob sticking out the back. What really intrigues me is the method of retaining the 'lever cap' in both your plane and, it would appear, also in the handled one you posted. I have not seen anything like that before & wrongly assumed it was a crude 'fix' when the bridge was lost/damaged. If your plane is a Towell, it must be an outlier from his 'normal' production, 'cos every pic. of a Towell mitre I can find has a fixed bridge (with very nice cupid-bow edges, too) riveted in place. I have thought up to now that bridges were the go on fabricated bodies and early cast bodies had lugs cast on the sidewalls (though one minor maker persisted with the cast lugs 'til well into the century). Lever caps came in later (in fact according to one Norris catalogue I've seen, you could still order a mitre plane with traditional bridge & wedge well into the early 1900s).

I imagine you've discussed this plane with far more knowledgeable people than I (like Peter Mc?), so I'm not questioning your id, just very much intrigued by it all. If only old tools came with a written CV - it would make very interesting reading as well as solving many mysteries!

Cheers,
Ian

Yes Ian. Ive had some exited talks with Peter about this plane body when I first got it.

5 similar planes exist so far that I know of.
The lever cap is certainly an outlier from his normal production like you say Ian. There are many fine examples of his bridged mitres to be seen. My thinking is because he is the first production steel bodied UK plane maker as some have written, 1810 to 1850 is what I have seen. Pre Spiers, who started around 1840. That lever cap may be the first type lever invented as my second plane seen listed below says in its eBay listing. Maybe Mr Spiers came along later and said "good idea but I'm getting them cast and not fabricating them with screwed in lugs which could get loose and be lost."

The first one I saw is the Handled one . Its still listed for sale in the UK on eBay. Second time for sale that I know of as it was also previously listed in a David Stanley sale. Plenty of pictures of it here.

Unique Twin Handled Mitre Plane By Robert Towell Circa 1830 | eBay

In the listing is this write up. And you can see how Towell put his stamp down low to make room for the handle on the lever. And all the other ones the stamp is up high. It is missing patina around the handle and must have been well cleaned by the looks. You can see the scarf join at the back in the third picture. Replaced strike button with a bolt.
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The second one that turned up in NSW on eBay for sale was described by the seller as a "Robert Towell first lever cap. The very first plane to have a lever" And included an interesting picture of a David Stanley auction listing of the other BRW handled plane for comparison. That plane was stamped Buck on the lever and Rt Towell on the wood inside front. The guy who listed that did quite a write up in his listing and I'm now regretting I didn't save that as well. You can see the left lug in the 4th picture is a replacement by the looks.
Untitledebay au nsw a.jpg Towell.mitre_.w.handle.Stanley-1986.jpg s-l1600a.jpg s-l1600e.jpg s-l1600j.jpg
Rear pic showing scarf join.
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The third one I saw was an instagram posting by Sqando99. George Anderson . His tool collecting is something to see. https://www.instagram.com/sqando99/

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The fourth one is a brass or possibly bronze plane that was in a South Australian auction.
Stamped Buck with the same style lever but it has one flat end to the body instead of the double bowed end.
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And number 5 is my eBay purchase . Which was listed looking like this first pic. I just knew it was an old Mitre plane with two bowed ends and thought it was possibly a Towell like the others. Talking with Pete on the same construction as the others, tounge and groove sole joint and a fine mouth and the quality of Towell's plane making which you see on all his planes is all I have to go on. Petes knowledge on this stuff is well up there high with the other top people who study planes.
Two pics of the brazed scarf join same as the other examples. The blade and lever look like it was there for a long time. Looks like its only just been taken out?

Ebay5.jpgIMG_4969.jpg IMG_4970.jpg IMG_4960.JPG IMG_4551.jpeg

Its a very exiting find. Pity about the lost piece. It'l be sitting in a tool box somewhere or at a tip even. The shed it was in was a deaceased estate I think and was being cleaned out for the house sale. I am friends with the owner of the brass / bronze Buck stamped plane above and he has sent me measured pictures of the details of its parts to help with the re construction of my one. I was asked not to publish his pics. That will be a good help. I intend to visit him with my plane body and take a tracing from around the lever as well and see how well it fits.

Rob.

Originally Posted by D.W.

Neil, I hope the advice didn't come across as harsh or gotcha-like.

Not at all, David. Your timely advice saved us from spending time and effort with a disappointing outcome. So, thank you.

Thinking about my source for that piece of steel, it came with bits and pieces in a tool chest given to me by my old friend who in his earlier years had been an engineer onboard cargo boats in the South Pacific where he had to make repairs while at sea and, as you said, that D3 would have been the ideal material for making sleeves and the like where components were rubbing against each other and sufficient to to get them back to home port for more permanent repairs.

Originally Posted by auscab

I have a similar situation to you with a Rare plane missing important parts. A Towell missing its steel stamped lever cap and blade. One of my restoration jobs waiting for me.... one of the 5, I think roughly? That are known to exist.

I've enjoyed following your discussion with Ian on your Robt. Towell.

I'll keep an eye out for a spare Towell lever cap for that....

Thanyou, Rob, for those pointers. Once again I've been humbled by my ignorance! I've read about Towell & his planes in several places, but none mentioned that interesting lug system for holding the lever-cap. It would be fascinating to know that plane's journey from Britain to Oz - do you think it arrived back in the 1800s or later?

Anyway, now I see what the holes in the sides were for. I presume the lugs were missing when you got the plane? At least they'll be fairly easy to make & pein in again....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

It would be fascinating to know that plane's journey from Britain to Oz - do you think it arrived back in the 1800s or later?

No idea on that one Ian. It was an older persons house I was told. It probably came out in a tool box with a cabinet maker back in the 19th C.

Originally Posted by IanW

Anyway, now I see what the holes in the sides were for. I presume the lugs were missing when you got the plane? At least they'll be fairly easy to make & pein in again....

I just got the body and no lugs. The lugs look to me to be screwed into the lever only and not peined into it or the sides. The side holes are plain and clean. No taper or countersink to make peining work that I can see.

Rob.

Originally Posted by auscab

.... It probably came out in a tool box with a cabinet maker back in the 19th C. .....

I guess that's the most likely scenario. I don't think anyone in Oz was retailing high-end mitre planes back in 1830....

Originally Posted by auscab

..... I just got the body and no lugs. The lugs look to me to be screwed into the lever only and not peined into it or the sides. The side holes are plain and clean. No taper or countersink to make peining work that I can see....

Once again I was jumping to conclusions Rob - you can see why I'm so fit (well semi-fit on a very good day...).

I just assumed the lugs would be locked in there to keep them from getting lost in the shavings. But it explains why they are missing, along with the 'lever cap', - they've all been put in a safe place, probably several sheds ago, not the one the plane was found in.

It's such a common story, folks cleaning up an old bloke's shed who don't know what the tools are that they are bundling up for the garage sale or the dump, let alone small parts that may belong to them. The fence & depth stop for the 78 I got from FIL's shed were saved by a whisker. SIL was holding an old rusty can of stuff over the skip & about to pour, saying "This looks like more of dad's rubbish..." when the tool gods or something must've whispered in my ear & I stopped her, thinking I better have a look at what's in it. Amongst the usual old rusty nuts & bolts & nails & screws & dirt was the depth stop and thumbscrew for the 78. That sent me on a hopeful hunt for the fence, which I duly found in a box of sand-casting tools that had belonged to his father. It was a close call, they could all have been resting under a few hundred tons of landfill, now.

I guess with a bit of care you'll be able to machine the shafts on the new lugs so they are a very firm press-fit - I doubt you'll want to have to make new ones every time you take the blade out to sharpen......

Cheers,
Ian