Thread: Hand Plane

Neil, we seem to be pressuring you to get on with restoring that plane!

Thumb & chariot planes are probably not everyone's cup of tea, but the thumb plane I made for myself has turned out to be one of my better creations. I was going to give it a brass lever cap like the 31, but decided halfway through the build to use a wooden "wedge-lever" like Norris used on his screw-adjuster version, the A31. Why they switched from a lever cap on the earlier non-adjuster 31 to the wedge & thumbscrew arrangement on the A31 I don't know, but a theory I've come up with is that the thumbscrew/wedge applies a little less pressure on the blade so that those who insist on trying to make adjustments without backing-off the L/C pressure are less likely to damage the adjuster screw. Pure theory & probably a wild one, but whatever the case the wooden 'handle' would be a little more comfortable to hold, methinks. Norris used a rather flat wedge, but I gave mine a bit of a bulge, which I reckoned would make it even more comfy: Adj 1.jpg

I'd first used this system on a chariot plane which I made only because I was intrigued by the look of them. The typical chariot plane has a "bull nose" like Rob's example above, and is the easier construction for a home builder because you only need to fit a small strip on the toe to close the mouth: Shavings.jpg

While this plane is extremely handy when I need a small bull-nosed plane, there are not that many times in a year when it's needed so I made another with a "full" toe. That is a bit more work because of the split sole & the T&G joint it requires (you can see the joint in the wide 'pin'): Pinned bridge.jpg

One of my books says both Spiers & Norris made long-toed versions of their chariots but I think the numbers were very small indeed. I have only seen a very poor-quality picture of one & certainly not come across any in the flesh (metal). Exactly what the chariots were mostly used for has never been recorded, to my knowledge, they had a brief heyday, then dropped out of the catalogues completely.

While I'm attached to both chariot planes, I don't use either anywhere near as much as the smaller "thumb" plane. It is such a handy little thing & it probably helps that I got the blade temper on this one as close to perfect (by my reckoning) as I'm ever likely to achieve. It's easy to sharpen, but holds its edge remarkably well - this one is amongst my very best 'keepers'...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Of course the only way to restore full collector value would be to find a genuine spare thumbscrew (good luck!) and blade (even more good luck!), so restoration to good 'user' state seems the best idea to me.

...

I'll be happy to help in any way when you get around to the 'restoration' - the blade would be the easiest part, & I could soon cobble one of those up for you if you wish....
Cheers,
Ian

Ian

That is an exceedingly kind offer!

I'm a bit overwhelmed with the generosity and knowledgeable input from you and Rob.

And, yes, I've come to the realisation that there is no way I'm going to get an original blade or thumbscrew for it and that "restoration to a good 'user' state seems the best idea".

Any attempt at a restoration 'project' had stalled for want of a clear way forward and also my mate is still half way through his move (he is not only moving but also having a new house built with all that entails) and has been too busy to engage with the detail, which I think he would like to do when he can.

Anyway, you have all prompted me to give it my attention again...

Originally Posted by IanW

PS, your pics are still not uploading properly - dunno what's going on - you may need to 'report' it & have one of the more capable IT folks sort it out for you...

OK, having another go at posting the photos of the 'thumb' plane as it was when I first discovered it...

20230612_105651.jpg

Spiers thumb plane - end view - as found.jpg


Close up photo of the lever cap

Spiers thumb plane cap - as found.jpg


So, nothing obvious on the heavily patined lever cap

other than that H. MOORE stamp

No worries, Neil, I just love to see good old tools brought back to a healthy, usable state. If you find it half as useful as I find my thumb plane, you won't regret going to a bit of trouble to get it sorted.

I'm pretty sure I have enough scraps of 1084 to make a blade that size, so all it'll cost you is postage. Just send me a PM with the blade details if you'd like a snecked version.

I strongly suspect the original thread in the LC was square, square threads were definitely the norm on 19thC lever caps, & it's probably a fluke that a Whitworth screw fits. Steel screws will cut their own thread in brass if they are a near-fit &/or someone could easily have run a tap through it, of course, but it should be apparent on close inspection if the thread was tampered with. If the existing thread is sound, I see no reason to not continue with it. Square threads are stronger size-for size than pyramidal threads, but taps & dies for square threads are not easy to obtain & cost far too much to have custom-made. In any case, I think the strength difference is irrelevant on a lever-cap screw that is only ever tightened with fingers. I've used pyramidal threads on all of my lever-caps and have experienced no problems in the 20-odd years a couple have been in use...

Cheers,

Had I not taken to the lever cap with a bit of gentle polishing I would not have revealed the following feint details...

BU K letters on No9.jpg

I've added some arrows and lettering to the photo showing where the name BUCK is stamped and below that TOTTm COURT Rd., which further investigation found was the stamp of the tool seller George Buck of Tottenham Court Rd. in London, who sold the planes made by Spiers and later Norris with the BUCK stamp on the lever cap. So, a close call on ever identifying its maker and possible value.

Hi Neil.
Lovely pictures. Thanks.
The sizing of them may have been the problem before. I saved them then checked the sizes and they are around 1600 x 1200, which is big. Great for detail but hard to load here mostly I think. Ive never tried loading images that large. Usually what ever the largest dimension is I would reduce to 1000. It must be that if you don't try to many large ones it works and they load.

The Buck details that are coming through are fantastic! Its amazing how there is not the slightest sign of them in the before shot. At least Mr Moore didn't do his stamp work over the top of the original.


I believe thread type can be either / or in these thumb planes when it comes to Square or what is probably Whitworth . I just checked images I have saved or Spiers / Buck thumb planes and here is one that isn't square. Most of The others look to be square.
A Jim Bode sale tool.

Jim Bode B.jpg Jim Bode C.jpg

And this one.
Spiers.Thumb_.Plane_.Octagonal.LC_.Screw_.jpg

They also can show up with a steel thread (Whitworth) and Gunmetal knob as with this rare special order Spiers smoother that is a reduced size from standard. From the Peter McBride website.

spiers6in_01.jpg spiers6in_06.jpg spiers6in_04.jpg spiers6in_02.jpg



Rob

Originally Posted by IanW

No worries, Neil, I just love to see good old tools brought back to a healthy, usable state. If you find it half as useful as I find my thumb plane, you won't regret going to a bit of trouble to get it sorted.

I'm pretty sure I have enough scraps of 1084 to make a blade that size, so all it'll cost you is postage. Just send me a PM with the blade details if you'd like a snecked version.

Ian

Too kind, too kind!

Just a thought, I have some plate tool steel that was given to me many years ago by an old engineer friend that was made by Spear and Jackson at their Aetna Works in Sheffield, England. The works there was closed in 1899, so that would make it at least 124yrs old. That would give the blade some authenticity, overlapping as it does with Speirs himself.

I understand that the steel is the equivalent of AISI D3 with 2% carbon and 13% chromium. See the attached that I put together that includes heat treatment info for D3. The wrapper on the steel also includes some info on heat treatment. Ian, if I was to send you some of this would that be an option?

I'll do some measuring and send you a PM in the next few days.

Originally Posted by IanW

Just semantics, Graeme, but "chariot plane" is probably not one of the names you could apply to Neil's plane.

Agreed, Ian, it is all semantics!

"Chariot plane" is not a descriptor that I ever use unless I am quoting, but others are not quite so purist. Here is another that Jim Bode describes as a "miniature one inch chariot plane".
Miniature One inch Chariot Plane by PAUL HAMLER – Jim Bode Tools

Chariot Plane - Mini.jpg jimbodetools.com

Irrespective of the name, it is cute!

Here you go Neil.
I have detailed dimensions of a Buck stamped Spiers thumb plane knob and compared that to my Spiers gunmetal chariot knob. The main difference is the thread width. One being 9 mm and the other 7.92mm. And also the thread count. One 14 tpi and the other 18 tpi.

IMG_4472.jpeg

Rob .

Originally Posted by auscab

Here you go Neil.
I have detailed dimensions of a Buck stamped Spiers thumb plane knob and compared that to my Spiers gunmetal chariot knob. The main difference is the thread width. One being 9 mm and the other 7.92mm. And also the thread count. One 14 tpi and the other 18 tpi.

IMG_4472.jpeg

Rob .

Many thanks for those details, Rob.

Besides the dimensions, that photo also gives a good side view of that knurling that .

I've measured the replacement bolt on the one I have here and it has an OD of between 7.55 and 7.6mm and 18tpi (if I'm measuring that correctly). It is a loose fit in the lever cap and a similar fit running through 5/16" 18tpi BSW die, which may be opened up a bit.

Peering in at the thread inside the lever cap, the one here definitely looks to be regular and not square thread...

Thread in Spiers lever cap - x sm.jpg

Originally Posted by NeilS

I understand that the steel is the equivalent of AISI D3 with 2% carbon and 13% chromium. See the attached that I put together that includes heat treatment info for D3. The wrapper on the steel also includes some info on heat treatment. Ian, if I was to send you some of this would that be an option?

Here are the details from the wrapper...

20231027_130005.jpg

20231027_130134.jpg

Thickness of plate is about 3.55mm or 9/64".

Neil, I'm more than happy to give that steel a go. It's an oil-quench brew, so should be pretty safe in my hands. I'm quite confident about the hardening, but not sure about the tempering, but going by the instructions on the wrapper, there seems to be a fair bit of leeway, so we should be ok.

I'll PM you with my address.....
Cheers,
Ian

Originally Posted by NeilS

Ian

Too kind, too kind!

Just a thought, I have some plate tool steel that was given to me many years ago by an old engineer friend that was made by Spear and Jackson at their Aetna Works in Sheffield, England. The works there was closed in 1899, so that would make it at least 124yrs old. That would give the blade some authenticity, overlapping as it does with Speirs himself.

I understand that the steel is the equivalent of AISI D3 with 2% carbon and 13% chromium. See the attached that I put together that includes heat treatment info for D3. The wrapper on the steel also includes some info on heat treatment. Ian, if I was to send you some of this would that be an option?

I'll do some measuring and send you a PM in the next few days.

not a steel for wood or knife blades. D3 is a really low toughness (breaking and chipping easy at angles you'd use in a woodworking tool) large carbide steel that was probably intended to be a low cost high wear die steel for blunt edges, or an attempt to make a low cost lower speed high angle (80 degrees, for example) lathe tool.

I tracked down toughness of D3 vs. D2 - as in resistance to lateral breakage - it's 1/3rd of D2, or about 1/9th of something like A2, and the micrographs of the carbides are astounding. They are in some cases 60-75 microns in size, almost like a chain or bunch of carbides all together. O1 carbides are about 1, and A2 probably has the odd carbide here or there that gets to 10 that gives it the sometimes reputation of chipping before dull and leaving lines on work.

It would probably be difficult to sharpen D3 without chipping the edge in sharpening, but in a nearly square tool edge, it would be less of a problem.

(if there's a curiosity about why a steel with such huge fragile carbides would even exist, in low heat metal to metal sliding contact, big carbides are an asset to slow wear. so if you were thinking of making two mating surfaces in a machine that would rub flat face to flat face, D3 is probably a good choice)