Thread: Somebody hand me a rolled up newspaper...

I wonder if Veritas had this sort of response when they were first released?

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have (I wasn't frequenting forums then so can't really say). They were a new kid on the block, no stigma attached.

I think they've priced them at exactly the right point if they are intended to be competitors for Veritas (which they obviously are, you only need to look at them). They're not interested in capturing some imagined 'in-between' market.

People have been whinging for years about the quality of Stanley stuff. They've tried to do something about it and they get shot down for it. There's no pleasing some people.

I'm sure we'll be able to cut through the smugness with a knife if they turn out to be dogs.

Originally Posted by silentC

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have (I wasn't frequenting forums then so can't really say). They were a new kid on the block, no stigma attached.

I think they've priced them at exactly the right point if they are intended to be competitors for Veritas (which they obviously are, you only need to look at them). They're not interested in capturing some imagined 'in-between' market.

People have been whinging for years about the quality of Stanley stuff. They've tried to do something about it and they get shot down for it. There's no pleasing some people.

I'm sure we'll be able to cut through the smugness with a knife if they turn out to be dogs.

OK they're now in competition with Veritas. That's one thing and possibly a good one.
But it doesn't do anything except in advertising terms for the rest of their products.
Remember that these improved, back to our golden past products have been paid for by punters buying less than great quality over many years.
Jim

I don't know anything about the internal financial structure of the company but I guess they're entitled to make a profit and spend it how they see fit. R&D costs are logically attributed to sales of the end product though when you budget, so if they don't sell I imagine it will go down as a loss at the end of the day and they'll be worse off than if they did nothing.

I just wonder exactly what it is people want from Stanley? Do you want them to just keep selling handyman quality products? Why is another range of products at the higher end of the market a bad thing for the consumer? All I see is good news.

Originally Posted by silentC

I don't know anything about the internal financial structure of the company but I guess they're entitled to make a profit and spend it how they see fit. R&D costs are logically attributed to sales of the end product though when you budget, so if they don't sell I imagine it will go down as a loss at the end of the day and they'll be worse off than if they did nothing.

I just wonder exactly what it is people want from Stanley? Do you want them to just keep selling handyman quality products? Why is another range of products at the higher end of the market a bad thing for the consumer? All I see is good news.

I think part of the problem is that Stanley were part of our youth (and our father's youth)
I'm not in the market myself as all my Stanleys are well over forty years old and going strong. Made the mistake of buying a couple of things for my son which were rubbish and very disappointing.
It's not just Stanley of course - Record, Marples and a whole long list just can't be trusted in the same way anymore.
No smugness, just sadness.
Jim

Originally Posted by Woodwould

Hear hear! The Stanley poppies are of no stature yet. I for one will give them the opportunity to attain some height before slashing them down.

We all have a right to be skeptical about Stanley, but the danger is that we slip over the border into "dismissive" before anyone ever tries these things.

At this point we know what they will look like, many of the design features, and approximately how much they will cost. All that plus recent history gives us expectations about performance, but no proof of performance.

Until someone independent has written a review, we owe it to Stanley (and ourselves) to keep an open mind. We could be pleasently surprised.

Originally Posted by switt775

We all have a right to be skeptical about Stanley, but the danger is that we slip over the border into "dismissive" before anyone ever tries these things.

At this point we know what they will look like, many of the design features, and approximately how much they will cost. All that plus recent history gives us expectations about performance, but no proof of performance.

Until someone independent has written a review, we owe it to Stanley (and ourselves) to keep an open mind. We could be pleasently surprised.

The trouble is that all we have to go on so far comes from the advertising. I expect (hope) that someone on this site will have played a part in the development and that we will see a review soon.

Going back to the original post which compared it with a car wreck I'm not so sure. The other day I saw a shelf full of wooden jack planes. I was brought up on them but seen like that they only look good because wood looks good. Separate them from their function and you lose a great deal of their attraction. If the new Stanleys work well I'm sure they'll start looking a lot better, especially with a bit of sweat and grime on the tote.
Jim

but what will they cost is the real question. innit ? i'd be happy to own any of the pics in this thread, especially the block with the adjustable mouth... surely you all have jointers and thicknessers ? pompous hand tool wankers (only SLIGHTLY tongue in cheek here...)

I cant remember the last time I used a hand plane except to knock off an edge on a leg or a quick blast on a shooting board to clean up an edge. even a cheapie will do these functions so long as the blade stays in position.. right ? now a nice felder slider or 800mm drum sander... grunt grunt grunt.... !!!

Originally Posted by switt775

Looks like they are being marketed close to the LV prices. Woodcraft has them on their website, and the prices for the #4 compare as follows (all USD):

Stanley #4 Sweet Heart (that's what they're calling them) - $179.99
LN #4 iron bench plane (Woodcraft) - $300
Veritas #4 (from Lee Valley site) - $215

For Zed.

Originally Posted by Zed

but what will they cost is the real question. innit ? i'd be happy to own any of the pics in this thread, especially the block with the adjustable mouth... surely you all have jointers and thicknessers ? pompous hand tool wankers (only SLIGHTLY tongue in cheek here...)

I cant remember the last time I used a hand plane except to knock off an edge on a leg or a quick blast on a shooting board to clean up an edge. even a cheapie will do these functions so long as the blade stays in position.. right ? now a nice felder slider or 800mm drum sander... grunt grunt grunt.... !!!

Zed you're showing your age

I think you judged a book by its cover. And from what I've heard Luben. You were correct

One thing I've thought of that doesn't seem to have been considered in this discussion yet. If you go into your local hardware store, they don't seem to have heard of Veritas or Lie Neilsen (at least the hardware stores around here haven't!). They do stock Stanley planes of course. If the hardware stores can be convinced to stock the new Stanleys, they'll probably sell lots of them to punters who don't know of any alternatives, regardless of whether they stack up in quality/useability. Which is maybe what the Stanley marketing department were really thinking...

For Sure Bob. Most hardware stores around here wouldn't even know that there are different planes to stanleys. From what I can tell from whoever I talk to about planes; the general thought is that they are the best. Like when you see a listing on ebay "Super Rare Stanley plane No 4 Made in England!!!!!!!!"

Originally Posted by switt775

Until someone independent has written a review, we owe it to Stanley (and ourselves) to keep an open mind. We could be pleasently surprised.

You mean like this one? Chris Schwarz in his blog. Sounds like the low angle has some manufacturing problems to the extent that he "can't recommend it" - but notes that the factory is taking feedback and working on the issues he raised.

He also reviews the #4 in the October FWW, which I haven't read. On another forum, he says: "To sum up. It's an OK plane. It has significant backlash in the adjuster and a too-large tote. The adjustable mouth works great. The iron holds an edge very well. The plane required little fettling – just a little filing in some rough spots."

I didn't realise the #4 had a block plane-like adjustable mouth. That's pretty cool.

Haven't seen anything on the block plane yet.

This whole saga reminds me of the British Rail freight service from years ago.....

They came up with a super-duper, efficient, easy to use, parcel freight service. It was called "Red Star", and had all sort of delivery guarantees, etc. So far so good.

Over the next few years the quality of service gradually declined....parcels got shunted into sidings and forgotten about, parcels disappeared never to be seen again, some parcels even got run over by trains . Of course, the price stayed the same, until the service got so bad that punters were staying away in droves. Sending a parcel by "Red Star" was approximately equivalent to just chucking it in the bin at home.

The solution? Introduce a NEW superior parcel service ! This was called "Silver Star". A huge improvement over the (by now completely discredited...) "Red Star" service. For a suitable price premium (), "Silver Star" promised an efficient, easy to use, guaranteed delivery, parcel freight ser......hang on, wasn't that what "Red Star" was supposed to be?? Yup...you got it.....up the price, and offer customers exactly what they were supposed to be getting with the previous product.

By the time I left the UK, this cunning process had been repeated again...."Gold Star" was the new best thing since sliced bread. If they kept up the tradition, by now they would be up to a "Diamond Encrusted Sparkly Platinum" service.....

So now we have Stanley charging a premium price for a plane which is supposed to do exactly what their planes were always supposed to do but didn't. Hmmmm. As I said very early in this thread, if the prices were somewhere midway between existing 'boat anchor' Stanley planes and the LV/LN products, that's one thing. Pricing them within even 25% of Veritas prices means they have to be very, very good indeed. From the reviews and comments thus far, it seems Stanley QA still has a long way to go.

From a "glass half full" point of view, at least they've worked out how to make the soles flat. Now they just have to sort out the rest of the plane.....