Thread: Hand saws

Or do I need to get a dovetail saw for dovetailing, and two tenon saws - a rip & crosscut saw for tenons? Is there maybe a difference in the depth of cut in the dovetail and tenon saws

Broad answer because I'm stil learning this stuff too.....but don't worry an expert will be along shortly.

Traditionally a carpenters toolchest would contain 3 back-saws. A pair of tenon saws (1 rip, 1 crosscut) and a dovetail saw. The dovetail saw blade is small and I assume this gives greater control on fine work. Backsaws are restricted in their depth of cut by the 'back' and the tenon saws are larger, hopefully with a deep enough cut for the largest tenon you wish to make.

I'm thinking of getting a pair of these for general sawing in the shop and for tenon cutting. Is the depth of cut too shallow for tenon work (60mm)?

Veritas® Carcass Saws - Lee Valley Tools

Originally Posted by groeneaj

I'm thinking of getting a pair of these for general sawing in the shop and for tenon cutting. Is the depth of cut too shallow for tenon work (60mm)?

Veritas® Carcass Saws - Lee Valley Tools

Hi Andy. You will need a dovetail saw also. Suggest the 16 tpi crosscut.

Veritas® Dovetail & Crosscut Saws - Lee Valley Tools

A crosscut saw for dovetails? I thought it was a ripping cut?

I was looking at the 14tpi veritas saw for dovetails, and the rip and crosscut for tenons and general sawing in the shop. But my issue was whether the depth of cut on the tenon saws will be a problem/restrict me?

Andy

Originally Posted by groeneaj

A crosscut saw for dovetails? I thought it was a ripping cut?

I was looking at the 14tpi veritas saw for dovetails, and the rip and crosscut for tenons and general sawing in the shop. But my issue was whether the depth of cut on the tenon saws will be a problem/restrict me?

Andy

Hi Andy. If you read the details on the 16tpi you will see the teeth are shaped to handle xcut & rip.

For rip on tenons 60mm may restrict you. I would prefer something closer to 75 - 100mm depth of blade.

I have tenon saws that are 90mm+ 'deep'.....but I buy 2nd hand so I get what I can. The Veritas saws look nice and I suppose they would be fine for furniture work......and as long as you're not spending your rent money you probably won't regret buying them.

Yeah iv'e been looking at second hand saws but I havn't come accross any so far.
The other thing is I don't get very much time in the garage, and when I do I like to spend it actually making things rather than scrubbing rust off a blade. But i'm still going to be on the look out for something decent second hand in the cross/rip saws.

Hi Andy - there seems to be a lot of confusion about small saws, and part of it is due to names that are at best rough guides. Tenon saws, dovetail saws carcass saws come in all sorts of lengths, depths and tooth pitches that overlap, so perhaps names are best put aside while you concentrate on overall size, plus tooth profile & pitch (number of teeth per inch, or tpi).

To me it's a simple equation of how much saw you need to do the job, and keeping a reasonable number of teeth in the cut. I find larger tools clumsy, & prefer my saws to be on the smaller end of their ranges. In general, I pick up a saw that suits the size of the job, i.e. it has a pitch that ensures a reasonable number of teeth in the kerf, and not too much metal to get in the way & obsure the job.

As Planemaker says, you can cut small teeth to a 'hybrid' pattern quite easily - a more aggressive rake & a bit of fleam and a fine-pitch saw will perform very well in both rip and crosscut modes. But you don't even need to do that - on most woods, you will notice small differences when crosscutting with ripsaw-patterned teeth finer than about 15 tpi. However, this doesn't hold for larger teeth - crosscutting with a 10 tpi rip will often leave a pretty ragged mess on the exit side, and just won't be as smooth or efficient as a crosscutting profile of equal tpi..

Ripsaws are often set finer than crosscut, if used for making shallow cuts (e.g. dovetails) but you will set on a saw used for ripping tenon cheeks 35mm deep or deeper. One reason for putting a little more set on a crosscut is because boards usually have different moisture levels between inside & outside, and that can make the cut close over a bit as you get into it. More set also gives you "steerage".

But there is wide lattitude, on all these things, and the more experienced you are with saws, the more you can make do with a saw that isn't ideal for a given situation. I have a pretty wide choice of saws, but tend to operate happily with 4 or 5 getting most of the work.

My suggestion is, look at what physical sizes suit you best - the LV saws are quite small, so if you are a big bloke who prefers bigger weapons, look to some of the larger saws. If you start with a couple of saws in the 'medium' pitch range - say a 12 or 15 tpi rip if you plan to cut reasonable sized tenons, and a 15 tpi crosscut as a general "carcase" saw. My main dovetail saw is 15 tpi, which I find suitable for thicknesses of 10mm up to 20mm. I also prefer a nice little 18tpi crosscut for nipping off small tenon & dovetail shoulders. The rule of thumb is to always try & have at least 6 teeth in the cut - as you get more experienced you can get away with fewer, i.e. use a coarser pitch than ideal. After a bit, you will almost certainly decide you want to try coarser & finer pitches for some jobs.

You might even get into the arcane world of re-forming your teeth to suit yourself. An experienced sawyer can handle a more aggressive rake than a beginner (it cuts faster, but is harder to start, and can have a rough action if you force it). As your accuracy & skill improves, you can also get away with less set, which makes for slightly more efficient cutting and neater surfaces.

I find most beginners seem to prefer finer teeth (as I did when starting out) as they are easier to control, and to some extent, less fussy about how they are sharpened - as I said, with or without fleam doesn't make as much difference as on larger saws/teeth. But the only way to find out what really suits you is to dive in, get a saw or two & use them. If you persist, you will soon form your own opinions about what suits you best.....

Have fun,

Hi Ian, thanks for your reply. You have some very good advice that i'll definetely take on board when choosing a saw.

Cheers,
Andy

I bought the Veritas saws last year, and have just cut my first dovetails and tenons with them: Hall Table WIP. I agree that a finer cut is good for learning as its easier to start, easier to control, and gives a finer result. I tend to favour bigger tools as I have meaty fists, but I find these saws very comfortable, and particularly light which I like. I too dislike spending my few hours of shop time scrubbing rust!