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  1. #1
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    Default Going hand tools.

    I am sick and tired of the dust and noise of using machinery and power tools. Am I crazy considering selling all the dust/noise makers and just using hand tools. Joiner, thicknesses, drum sander, table saw, router table and quite a lot of Festool goodies. The money tied up in these could be used to buy some quality hand tools to add to my small collection. I may even be able to afford some decent timber.

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  3. #2
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    That's what I've done over the years, but I've kept portable power tools in case I need to make something in a hurry. Never regretted getting rid of the dust and noise makers.

  4. #3
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    Go hybrid; use the machines for roughing out and refine with hand tools. I try to promote hand tool use at the Bundy guild all the time; I refer to most of the equipment there as suitable for carpentry but not really accurate enough for joinery!
    Some things are just quicker by hand. I recently acquired a “Radi-plane” out of curiosity; it puts a 1/8” polished roundover on timber edges in three strokes; no sanding required. If I put on my racing stripes I could probably cut the same profile on the router table in under two minutes; providing the bit was stored close at hand.

    If you want to turn to the Dark Side you need a good heavy bench with a couple of different ways to hold down materials and a reliable sharpening system that’s always available to be onhand. The rest is up to you!
    Nothing succeeds like a budgie without a beak.

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I am sick and tired of the dust and noise of using machinery and power tools. Am I crazy considering selling all the dust/noise makers and just using hand tools. Joiner, thicknesses, drum sander, table saw, router table and quite a lot of Festool goodies. The money tied up in these could be used to buy some quality hand tools to add to my small collection. I may even be able to afford some decent timber.
    Hi Bucky

    To be blunt - you are 72 and, unless you only plan to build small items, such as boxes, and have forearms like Popeye, you are going to do yourself an injury.

    I am 71, and spent decades working with handsaws and chisels, but with a tablesaw thrown in. Over the past 10 years I have been investing in quality machines (Hammer) for prepping the wood, making sure there is dust extraction, to reach a point where I can relax and use hand tools at my own pace, with soft jazz in the background. The real woodworking for me lies with design, joinery and a meticulous fit. It pays dividends to work with timber which is straight and square. I've long banished any thoughts of preparing rough boards by hand. I did it for years, but Jarrah .. She-oak ... you have gotta be out of your mind! I would like to continue building furniture for at least another decade. Hopefully more. This means I need to look after my body.

    I suggest that you try a couple of items by hand only. Lock up the machines, and set them aside for a few months. I actually enjoy my machines. They do not dominate at all - get their part done, and then away with them. You need to discover a way to do this as well.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  6. #5
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    There's a key issue here - if you're going to work with hand tools only on things and they're large, you'll want to work with woods that people would've used when they were working just with hand tools.

    I understand that Australia has plenty of these in parts.

    If someone has a bad wheel, hip, shoulder or elbow - then all hand tooling is out. If they're otherwise able bodied, the hand work itself doesn't have to be more taxing than a brisk walk, and the planing doesn't have to be hard on shoulders, hands, etc and could probably be beneficial in terms of maintaining upper body dexterity.

    I have minor arthritis. Certain things are no good (holding on to a coping saw handle and having to use pressure is bad - it leaves me with hook shaped fingers, but sawing and planing doesn't do this as proper planing is more or less making brisk walk type effort with a plane and no need to have a tight grip - same with saws).

    Dimensioning by hand doesn't mean giving up accurate work - you mark and work to the mark. A typical "stop at the mark" thickness difference for me on anything other than extremely wide boards (where the middle thickness minor variation wouldn't matter that much, anyway) is about .005", and never more than a hundredth.

    I went to hand tools first and then discharged the power tools. I think this is a smart way to do it. Regardless of whether or not you can separate joinery from power tools, you will build different things in more classic patterns almost certainly if you go almost entirely hand tools, and the way you do it will differ -there won't be cut lists or any of that nonsense, you'll have stock to work from and dimension wood as you go in steps, back and forth with joinery.

    If you're in a race, it will be slower. The thing that really stops people from working by hand if they desire to do it is the false sense that it's really difficult at first. I can work more accurately than my portable tools can. I can rip more accurately than a bosch jobsite can be set, at a rate of about 1 1/2 feet per minute on medium hardwoods. I can resaw more accurately than my jet 18 inch saw was able to do on really wide boards,...on and on.

    I cannot do these things more accurately than the best of power tools, but also have zero interest in bringing 15k worth of stationary tools into my house despite having the square footage to do it if organized. Since changing to hand work, i'm probably in the shop four times as much and make two or three times as much in volume as with power tools, my arthritis is no worse (moderate exercise in hand work seems to help it), and the hand work is easier than I'd have ever imagined - as we've discussed elsewhere, it requires avoiding advice from people like Chris Schwarz and David Charlesworth about body positioning or tool use. Their postures and thrashing around are pain inducing, less productive and limiting.

    How long does it take to get good at hand dimensioning? Less than a year.

  7. #6
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    David, this issue is not about which is better, hand or power. This is about deciding to do hand tools ONLY at age 72 years. How old are you?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    David, this issue is not about which is better, hand or power.
    Derek, you're the one filled with that notion, not me. I think it makes no difference (which is better), and has more to do with what one wants to do. This is sort of like the discussion in psychology about approaches that are idealistic with a better ideal outcome, but that fail because people don't actually do them vs. something idealistically inferior. If one doesn't like woodworking with their set of stuff, they won't do it. Most people would say the way I work is stupid, inferior and inept. But I will go to the shop and do it whereas with a hybrid setup, I had to fight myself to go to the shop.

    I'm 44. My grandfather cut and split wood professionally until he was 79 - 6 hours a day. hand tool woodworking isn't close to that - it's more like working out with 5 pound dumbbells, and to make it more forceful than that is going the wrong way - it is simply a matter of moving your body and extending arms and setting things up so that no single move is a particular strain.

    My grandfather had worn his body out long before 79 - i'm sure the work was painful in one way to him, but he also told us that it felt good. It gave him a sense of liveliness and cleared his mind. He was addicted to it, I guess.

    My father is one year older than you and could easily do what I'm doing physically. How do I know? He helped me install my kitchen and went step for step with me the entire way. I offered to give him breaks, but he didn't need them. He was a teacher.

    This is more about want and can. If someone wants to work with hand tools at 72, they can. If they want to make four or five furniture projects a year doing this, they can. If they want to do it when they've got a bum shoulder, bad knees, terrible dexterity and they want to make boats out of verawood, then they probably can't. My suggestion is simple - do what you want, find out you can't before you say you can't.

    AS far as your assertion that it's not physically possible, you're running perhaps with a crowd who gives up easily. I've seen otherwise on a far more strenuous basis.

    The one thing I would suggest, which I did above, is absolutely holding on to the thickness planer as the one thing that can be unpleasant working entirely by hand is working with 6/4 wood when you need 4/4 in a hurry. The rest just isn't that much work, and the dexterity gain from rough work is enormous. you do rough sawing and suddenly find that you can cut joinery far better - it's a matter of neural development and experience in two different places overlapping.

    I will help anyone who wants to attempt it unless they put conditions on it that make no sense (e.g., I wouldn't help someone who said they were going to use premium metal planes only, they're starting in the weeds, or who said they want bevel up planes to be some part of the rotation doing it - that quadruples or quintuples the physical work). If someone said they wanted to work only with rosewoods or really hard woods, I'd only give them a potential setup if they said they were making small boxes.

    My comment about making things differently stands from above - when you can work entirely by hand, you will make things that you wouldn't make with power tools in a style that you wouldn't attempt. Less flat and square, more chamfering and less round over, more elaborate mouldings, etc. Simply because these are engaging things to do and not endless searches for the right router bits, etc.

    It's only the thickness planing or use of woods not suitable for hand tool-only work that are really limiting.

  9. #8
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    My advice to the Op is to try it out. Get a good plane, a couple good chisels, sharpen them up, and go to work. See how it goes.

    The thing is, there's a lot of romance and hyperbole out there. There's a giant amount of cheering anachronism. I prefer to thickness and do major sawing by machine. I also like electric sanders and.drills. I like chisels for fitting things and planes for jointing boards for glue up.

    There's also the reality of your physical situation. If you're still healthy as a horse, great. If neuropathy or tremors are starting to rear their ugly head, coordination or stamina are dropping off, mmm. Know yourself. Be honest with yourself.

  10. #9
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    The interesting thing about hand tools, as you say, there's a whole lot of cheering and romance about working by hand, much like carving was stylish at one point (30 years ago, bird carving was the rage). My dad tried it, as did a bunch of people in his classes. I think they liked the idea of it, made a few birds and realized they didn't like the idea of what it would take to get really good at it.

    Most of the romance about hand tools and the idea of "lifestyle woodworking" come from people who are excited about the whole lifestyle and escapism part of it, but they're not that excited about solving the problem of getting good at it to the point that it literally does become like a brisk walk, it's not painful and it's inviting.

    I think probably 5% of woodworkers would enjoy working entirely by hand. Probably half think they would. I don't much care for the whole old fashioned this or that or the re-enacting, though derek has referred to some of the things I like as being due to re-enacting. It has literally nothing to do with that.

    What I like is the engagement of it, the mastery of something physical, the dexterity, the involvement at the level of working the wood vs. planning or reading machine manuals. I do have a couple of machines that I really like. I *really* like grinders, and I really like toaster ovens. They're great for making tools and tempering, respectively. I love a high speed 2" belt with coarse grit (actually I also really like removing metal entirely by hand, but I haven't figured out how to do that without creating a pretty significant expense, because the tools that do that well are expensive and they go dull on annealed steel pretty well).

    What's important here and why I'm sticking in this topic other than yes or no is because I only know a few people who have made things entirely by hand not just with the idea of notching their belt with it, but to get good at it to make now and in the future, and the latter is entirely different than the "lifestyle" woodworking blogs (like sellers) would involve. Sellers is painful for me to watch when he gives instruction on dimensioning - it's clear that he doesn't actually do it and he makes it look hard. Given his age, this isn't a surprise - when was the last time people did hand dimensioning because it was economically viable? Probably 1850s in the US. If you want to find out how you should do it in a way that's viable, then you get stuck reading things from that time period or before. Solutions since then have really been ways to make planes that are used less easier to use intermittently (e.g., a stanley 7 suffers little seasonal movement and won't crack in a site toolbox if the temp goes below zero F, and it won't go through a period of disuse and grab its iron by shrinking in width and then split at its cheeks. But a stanley 7 is a poor way to work rough wood compared to a wooden plane like this:

    Antique NELSON Jointer Plane with Offset Handle - 26 inch *SOLD*

    It seems like there should be little difference in physical effort, but the difference is large, and easily measured by using both types of planes to do the same job and timing it and then assessing how you feel.

    My point to the OP's case is that chances are against you that you'll work entirely by hand, but it's worth a try. Without working by hand, I wouldn't be woodworking. But I will also from time to time bust out portable tools to do bulk work if I'm asked to make something I don't want to make, or asked to make something lowest cost and fastest.

  11. #10
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    Yeah Derek, I have to take you to task for a bit of blatant age-ism there!

    However, I think I understand what you are trying to warn about, the hard yakka that prepping hard woods from rough-sawn to ready-to-use is not to be sneezed at. For anyone who has spent a lifetime using tools, you do learn to compensate quite a lot for ageing muscles. As your strength wanes you get more cunning, as a friend of mine likes to say. My old pot became a shadow of his former self in his 80s, yet he could still pick up an axe & run rings round far younger blokes (like me!).

    I know it would be a struggle for me if I'd spent all my time with nothing but powered tools up to now then suddenly decided to ditch them & go all bread-&-potato-powered. Easing into hand tools over many years give you time to become more competent at sharpening & setting up your tools, and the state of your tools makes an enormous difference to how easy or not they are to use! But that's speaking as an amateur, with a young family & work pressures & sporadic bench time; a retiree with the luxury of lots of time & the will to learn should be able to pick up the essentials much more quickly. I've been a pretty consistent exerciser all my adult life, so I'm probably a little fitter than average for my age, and so far I have been able to work as consistently with planes & saws as ever (though I may feel it a bit lot more the day after! ). That's due in large part to my edge-tools & saws now being (usually) in much better condition than when I first began using them.

    I too have advancing arthritis in my hands, & joints that hurt for no good reason, but like D.W., I've learnt to hold tools lightly & guide them rather than use a vise-like grip & forcing them to do my bidding, which helps a lot. I expend far less effort for the same physical result than I did in my 20s.

    There's plenty of formal research to support what most of us already know intuitively, that the desire to learn is the most important ingredient in acquiring a new skill, at any age. Just take your time & get as much mentoring from people who have the skills you wish to emulate. But mot of all, put in the time & effort it takes & you'll get there.....

    Cheers,
    IW

  12. #11
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    Thanks everyone for their feedback. Also thanks for reminding me I am 72 years of age. While my body acknowledges that my mind doesn’t. I enjoy woodworking as opposed to working with wood. It is my hobby and probably more importantly my therapy. Being retired it gets me off my and out of the house. It also creates the illusion that I am somewhat productive. Turning on the power tool, dust collector, donning face mask and earmuffs somehow somehow seems at odds with my notion of therapy. I tend to agree Chief Tiff, a fellow Bundyite, that going hybrid may be the way to go, at least initially. I will use my power tools for the donkey work. Some of them may go.

  13. #12
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    I agree with learning the process. There might be times or projects where you want to fuss it all by hand. For example I have a chunk of a tree from a family member's house that I will dimension all by hand for a little gift once it dries.

    Also - counterintuitvely - sometimes the largest projects must or should be done by hand. A large panel for a table or a desk might be too big for your jointer or thicknesser. I also find larger pieces easier to dimension by hand because all the angles are exaggerated by size. It's easy to see if 45mm stock is out of square by eye (ie, whether you are close or not) or with a square (without necessarily holding it up to the light). You're really squinting and checking twice to see if 19mm or smaller is out by a couple of degrees.

    I was keen myself to see if I could do it all by hand, for a number of reasons but mainly because I didn't want big, ugly machinery. I have given up quickly and now planning a shed for dimensioning.

    After doing it a few times, proposing to dimension by hand from roughsawn seems like someone proposing to get rid of their dishwashing machine or clothes washing machine so they can do it all by hand. It is just repetitive work that can usually be done better by machine.

    But moreso, it's time subtracted from the other aspects! The more time I spend dimensioning by hand, the less time I have to do sawing, joinery, chiselling, planing, scraping and finishing.

  14. #13
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    The way I look at this issue relates closely to what form timber is acquired or purchased.

    If timber is purchased in salvaged, rough sawn larger billets or even slabs, then breaking the timber up and dressing to size manually becomes a real physical challenge not to mention the time required, not just for old "pharts" but also for "yonguns".

    Timber already sized and dressed and required cross sectional dimensions usually only requires cross cutting and manual joinery which is far less of a work load even of performed manually. Die hard WWers may require very specific sizes that may not be readily available so ripping and dressing is needed. For those not wishing to do this, adjusting designs to use readily available sizes may be a possibility.

    A mate of mine is a commercial woodworker but he very rarely rips timber and only occasionally dresses/thicknesses/planes. He buys most of his timber DAR to size and so he just docks/joins/assembles the pieces. The main thing he cuts on his sliding panel saw is sheet goods.

    This of course makes the timber more expensive but he just passes the costs onto the client. This also means a lot less fine dust in his workshop (I know as I have logged his dust for a week) - he even has his Felder DC inside his workshop ! but he does have two massive roller doors at each end of the workshop so he has very good ventilation

  15. #14
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    I think probably 5% of woodworkers would enjoy working entirely by hand. Probably half think they would. I don't much care for the whole old fashioned this or that or the re-enacting, though derek has referred to some of the things I like as being due to re-enacting. It has literally nothing to do with that.
    David, I am not aware that I wrote anything like this .... unless you read into my question how old you are. I know how old you are. I know what type if woodworking you prefer, what you are and are not experienced at, and have not said a word.

    As you are aware from my numerous builds on-line, I love and use hand tools a lot. However, what is also evident, is that the initial stages of preparing the rough sawn timber - often very rough indeed - is done with machines. For myself, scrub or jack planes are not going to be used for this purpose. It just does not make sense with my local hardwoods. Someone working softer woods would see it differently. Indeed, someone working wood professionally with hand tools would select the timber very carefully to this end.

    Working to close tolerance is not about needing to use machines. In my case I take pride in doing this with hand tools. Good Lord, I have posted enough builds to show this to be the case. Part of the reason for doing so is to encourage more to not fear using hand tools. However, this is not about the ability to build with power vs hand; this is about learning where the strengths and weaknesses of one type of tool lies, and how to use this knowledge to both enjoy woodworking and to keep doing woodworking as long as possible.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    ... A mate of mine is a commercial woodworker but he very rarely rips timber and only occasionally dresses/thicknesses/planes. He buys most of his timber DAR to size and so he just docks/joins/assembles the pieces. The main thing he cuts on his sliding panel saw is sheet goods.

    This of course makes the timber more expensive but he just passes the costs onto the client. ....

    I'll put my accountants hat on Bob and say that it ain't necessarily so.

    What your mate does is probably higher value adding work than feeding boards into a planer/thicknesser - his hourly rate is higher $'s. Add the costs of his time plus the macjhinery costs to the costs of rough sawn timber and I would be almost certain that he has made a hard nosed business decision.

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