Thread: Saw Handle

Originally Posted by Andy_B

To be fair, you gave me the link to Andy's (Brit) video back in September.
Cheers,
Andy

At least I am consistent (with saw videos at least)! I knew I had given that link up several times recently, but wouldn't be able to recall who the recipients were if my life depended on it.

I have tried looking at saws very hard, but little seems to change. Yes, at some point you have to actually take to the saw with a file!

Regards
Paul

I really should be doing some sharpening instead, but since shaping the handle on my panel saw, I was hooked. It's addictive!

Haven't hand much joy buying second hand tools on eBay, so I recently bought a new S&J tenon saw. Yes, that's the one with the hideous looking handle.
IMG_20210215_161217106.jpg

It handles rather clumsily, so a bit of refinement is warranted. The shape of the handle is loosely based on Rex Krueger's video on the same saw. Here's a WIP photograph.
IMG_20210219_124449062.jpg

I made the lamb tongue skinny this time, inspired by the many images of vintage saw handles available on the net.
IMG_20210220_084051560.jpg

This is the finished product after two coats of shellac and u-beaut wax. It handles well now, but the tooth still needs some tuning. The factory set seems to be quite large resulting in jagged cuts.
IMG_20210221_092838938.jpg

Cheers,
Andy

Hi Andy. Looks a lot better

That's pretty creative Andy, you got the grip and the connecting piece at the bottom looking much more like the handles of old. The grip looks far more hand-friendly than when you started.

Factory-made saws tend to have a heavy set, it makes them more versatile & able to cope with a wide range of woods, especially if the MC is a bit high (like construction-grade Pine). Most people who buy new saws these days probably don't plan to use them for making fine furniture! But an over-set saw is a nuisance if you are trying to make accurate cuts close to a line, they tend to wobble & wander, even in skilled hands. If you 'top' the current teeth a bit & re-sharpen, it will remove a goodly bit of the set and should improve the cut considerably. You might find it a bit confronting to file the tops off a set of brand-new teeth, but in fact it's quite a good introduction to saw sharpening because you have a set of very regular gullets to follow (or should have!). The main thing is to pay attention to the rake angle, which is too easy to change when you begin, and just a coupe of degrees can make a very noticeable difference with a rip saw.

I was reminded of that yesterday, when testing a newly-completed saw. The pack of shim stock I bought a few months ago included a piece of 0.032" plate, which is a bit heavy for typical 250-300mm backsaws, so I decided to use it to make a brute of a saw with a clear 100mm of blade under the spine. 12 inch 10tpi B_eye Maple.jpg

I gave it -5 deg. rake, which is my typical angle for a tenon saw, but with the high handle position and heavy blade, it had a very rough action, wanting to bite too hard under its own weight. I eased the rake back to -7, and it made a world of difference. Even though I've experienced it many times, I'm still often surprised at what a difference a small change of rake angle can make on a ripsaw....

Cheers,

That looks great, Andy. Both very functional and no doubt a pleasure to grab!

Thanks MA, Ian and Chris.
Really a nice looking saw you made, Ian! Bet it cuts any hardwood through like butter!

I did end-up sharpening the saw but unfortunately managed to muck it up.

Started by making a simple clamp a-la Paul Sellers. So far so good...
IMG_20210227_192836886.jpg

I then reduced the set by lightly tapping them with a hammer and jointed the teeth as recommended by Ian. Wanting an aggressive saw, I was aiming for a -5 to 0 degree rake freehand. One stroke for each tooth with a new needle file, then giddily made a trial cut expecting marked improvement. But the opposite happened, the saw glided and hardly made any cut ! Then I realised that I was offering the vertical side of the three-square file to the wrong side of the tooth! Instead of a 0 ~degree rake, I was doing ~-30 rake

Originally Posted by IanW

The main thing is to pay attention to the rake angle, which is too easy to change when you begin, and just a coupe of degrees can make a very noticeable difference with a rip saw.

Cheers,

This will haunt me.

But I was pleasantly surprised to know that one stroke could make such a big (albeit unwanted) difference.


I then tried to compensate my mistake by aiming for a 0 degree rake, making sure it's the right orientation this time (!), but with two strokes per tooth. The saw cuts much better, but still not aggressive enough. Probably the same state as before I started my sharpening attempt. I stopped here in case I would overcompensate further. The teeth now look like this:
IMG_20210226_204947340.jpg

The radius of the gullet seems rather large, or does it look normal?

Cheers,
Andy

Andy

Not easy to see from the pix, but the gullets look large compared to the teeth. I note the saw is 15ppi. What file were you using? I think you said it was a needle file. Ian is better qualified to offer advice on the small teeth and suitable files.

Regards
Paul

Andy, as Paul said, the pic is a bit too blurry to get a clear view, but I don't think the teeth are too bad. The gullets should be about the same area as the teeth, give or take a bit, and yours look within range. The bottoms are a bit more rounded than I would expect from a 4-cut needle file - are you using a coarser cut? The gullets won't affect aggressiveness of the teeth, that's entirely up to rake angle & sharpness of the tips.

Now, let's try to get this rake angle sorted.
First, I can't tell which way you had the saw for the photo. If the handle is to the left, the rake looks to be in the ball park, if it's to the right, I think you've still got way too much -ve rake, but it's awfully hard to judge accurately just looking at small teeth, and as I said, even a few degrees can make a huge difference.

Another consideration is, what are your expectations? The finer the teeth, the softer the wood, and the wider the piece of wood you are cutting, the less 'aggressive' the saw should feel. A fine-toothed saw that is well-sharpened should not feel terribly "bitey" but should nevertheless cut quickly, as long as the piece is not so wide that the gullets are filling with sawdust & slowing the cutting-rate. As a very rough guide, I would normally use a 15tpi saw for cuts less than 30-35mm wide, 12 tpi for up to ~60-65mm and a 10tpi saw for anything wider. However, these are very rough figures & if you walked into my shed today you may well see me using a 12tpi saw to cut something 75mm wide or wider; much depends on the wood itself, how critical the cut is, & whether I'm feeling too lazy to take the 3 steps to the saw cupboard & take out the "right" saw!

Now that you've changed the angle so much, you are going to be challenged to get the desired angle consistently free-hand. Pros could do it, but there's no way I can correct or alter rake angles consistently enough "freehand". I would be making myself a guide for the next attempt. Again, I would start with a light jointing - don't worry, you won't be losing much life from your saw and it's better to make sure those tops are even before you start. If they are still even, a light pass or two will show you this, and you won't have lost more than a few thou of saw plate.

This is a situation where a bit of experienced help would speed up your learning curve no end! If you were able to bring it to me, I'm sure we could get it sorted in a very short time.....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Andy_B

Thanks MA, Ian and Chris.
Really a nice looking saw you made, Ian! Bet it cuts any hardwood through like butter!

I did end-up sharpening the saw but unfortunately managed to muck it up.

Started by making a simple clamp a-la Paul Sellers. So far so good...
IMG_20210227_192836886.jpg

I then reduced the set by lightly tapping them with a hammer and jointed the teeth as recommended by Ian. Wanting an aggressive saw, I was aiming for a -5 to 0 degree rake freehand. One stroke for each tooth with a new needle file, then giddily made a trial cut expecting marked improvement. But the opposite happened, the saw glided and hardly made any cut ! Then I realised that I was offering the vertical side of the three-square file to the wrong side of the tooth! Instead of a 0 ~degree rake, I was doing ~-30 rake



This will haunt me.

But I was pleasantly surprised to know that one stroke could make such a big (albeit unwanted) difference.


I then tried to compensate my mistake by aiming for a 0 degree rake, making sure it's the right orientation this time (!), but with two strokes per tooth. The saw cuts much better, but still not aggressive enough. Probably the same state as before I started my sharpening attempt. I stopped here in case I would overcompensate further. The teeth now look like this:
IMG_20210226_204947340.jpg

The radius of the gullet seems rather large, or does it look normal?

Cheers,
Andy

Hi Andy. IanW put up a link ages ago to a saw sharpening guide that has really helped me. The only confusing bit was the description of modifying the guide block to help with fleam angles. I just cut the angle on the end of the guide block that rests against the saw blade (fleam) and as long as I keep the block parallel to my saw clamp I maintain the rake (because that is established after drilling the hole for the file). Sorry if this sounds confusing, it should make sense once you read the guide.

I used Vallorbe three-square needle cut #4, which I believe is the recommended type based on past posts on the forum.

Sorry for the blurry pic, I took the photo using mobile phone and was struggling to get it into focus on close-up objects.

Originally Posted by IanW

First, I can't tell which way you had the saw for the photo. If the handle is to the left, the rake looks to be in the ball park, if it's to the right, I think you've still got way too much -ve rake, but it's awfully hard to judge accurately just looking at small teeth, and as I said, even a few degrees can make a huge difference.
Cheers,

By habit, I usually place the handle on the right hand side but looking at the photograph again I'm not convinced!
So I took another photo (a bit clearer this time), with the handle to the right.
IMG_20210301_080127189.jpg

I don't have any specific expectation other than I thought the saw should cut a bit quicker than it currently does. As a benchmark, this is how much the saw cuts on a piece of pine after 30-35 strokes (though I suspect my technique - or the lack of it, contributes a fair deal)...
IMG_20210228_174236541.jpg

Thanks for the offer Ian, wouldn't say no to for any excuse to glean from you. I'll send you a PM.

I thought fleam angle would only be relevant for cross-cut saw? Maybe you're onto something there, MA, because I always assume it's a rip saw. Maybe the fleam is so small that I didn't perceive it?

Cheers,
Andy

OK Andy - all good. The rake looks a bit variable (may be picture perspective) but definitely appears to me to be in the ball-park.

The #4 cut is the one I recommend for 15-20tpi. It may just be the picture angle gain, or it may be that in trying to correct the rake angle you wobbled the file a bit, but the gullets to the right in your new pic have distinctly rounded bottoms, while those to the left look as sharp as I'd expect from a #4. I suspect that was what Paul spotted.

Can't really tell just how thick that piece of pine is but it looks around 19mm?? I'd expect one of my 15tpi saws to cut at least 50% or even twice as far for that many strokes, if that's the case. As you say, it may be technique or it may be the teeth. I think we do need a "saw-off"...

Fleam is only applied to cross-cut saws as a rule. A few boutique makers make a big song & dance about their "hybrid" teeth, which have less fleam & presumably higher rake angles than rip teeth of the same size and are touted as all-rounders. I mucked about with this style way back, and at first I embraced it enthusiastically, but as I got better at sharpening & learnt more about the effects of rake & fleam, I decided it was far better to have saws without an identity crisis. The teeth work quite differently on each style; you can think of rip teeth as a set of mini scrapers (they are often compared with chisels, but I think scraper is more accurate), whereas crosscuts are like a set of knives. On one, wood is scraped away by the tips of the teeth, while in the other case, it's the sides of the teeth that are doing the cutting.

Putting a small amount of fleam on a tooth doesn't affect the scraping action of the tips too much. The tops of the teeth will be angled a bit & the inside lower than the outside, but after a few teeth have travelled over the wood, the bottom of the kerf will match & the full top of each tooth will be in contact & scraping away at the wood. In hard woods, it should actually cut a bit better because the tooth tips are slightly skewed. The effect will be a bit variable depending on the wood & the angle across the grain, but it can certainly give an impression that the saw is cutting faster & freer at least under some conditions. When I tried to measure the difference, however, it was inconsistent, and at best, only marginally faster.

The small amount of fleam does not put a very sharp knife edge on the leading edge of the tooth, so the saw does not behave very well as a true-blue crosscut (at least not for me). It's a bit easier to be consistent with shallow fleam angles, but it's still more bother, so I long since decided it is easier to just keep rip teeth square and put my efforts into making "proper" crosscut teeth on the saws that need them.

In any case, the difference in crosscut performance between (reasonably well-sharpened) crosscut & rip teeth for 15tpi & finer isn't worth the bother, in my book. Age is beginning to make its mark on my eyesight & dexterity, and I find filing crosscut pattern on fine teeth a major challenge nowadays, so I'm quite content to do rip pattern on all of my fine saws....

Cheers,

Hi Andy

My advice for finding the sweet rake for a saw is to use the rake angle from a saw you like. Simply sit the file inside the gullet and measure its angle. Now use that. Or, if you are using a guide such as the Veritas (as I do), sit the file in the gullet, level the arms, and now you are able to duplicate your preferred set up.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by IanW

Can't really tell just how thick that piece of pine is but it looks around 19mm??
Cheers,

Yes, 19 mm isn't too far off.

Thanks for the advice, Derek. I haven't spent enough times sawing or used many saws to have a preference as yet. In time that may change, will keep it in mind.

Cheers,
Andy

So I took the saw to Ian yesterday for his diagnosis & treatment and the verdict was undoubtedly user error. Ian used the file that I had used to sharpen the teeth, and voila! It feels like a different saw!

This is how the teeth looks like now: much more uniform with nicer gullets.
IMG_20210306_204725239.jpg

A few things that I learnt from Ian:
1. Freehand sharpening is difficult especially for beginners, which was the cause of my previously inconsistent rake angles. A simple wooden stick guide would do the trick.
2. Use 160 mm needle file if possible (mine is ~200 mm which has a larger radius compared to the 160 mm, even though both are #4 cut).
3. My topping file was way too coarse: it was a double-cut bastard.
4. This particular saw (S&J tenon saw 15 tpi) comes with an excessive set from the factory. The set needs to be reduced considerably.
5. The set configuration is also peculiar. The factory set teeth was "right-straight-left-straight" instead of the usual "right-left-right-left". We decided to leave it as it is as otherwise there are teeth that need to be reversed and risk breaking.
6. This is more about my sawing technique, which tend to be short-strokes. Ian's words of wisdom was: "you paid for the whole length of the saw, use it". Longer strokes cut more efficiently.

Back at home, I made a -5 degree rake guide for future sharpening.
IMG_20210306_204919371.jpg

This is the casualty while forcing the tip of the file to form the triangular-shaped hole while making the guide. I think I drilled the hole a tad too small...
IMG_20210306_205002689.jpg

Cheers,
Andy