Thread: Saw Handle

Andy B

You have done well and transformed the original and very unappealing banal shape. A very ingenious adaptation of the lambs tongue. I like it. I wonder how many more saws S & J would have sold if they had done this?

Regards
Paul

Hi Andy. I love it! And glad to be of some help . Paul Sellars has a video on re shaping handles although you may find it a bit redundant now. And I blame Paul for encouraging me

That's terrific Andy, you've done a grand job of finding a real handle inside that mawkish lump of wood you started with! I agree, it's probably mostly perception bias that makes a sculpted handle feel better, but rounding off the grip has got to contribute quite a bit to comfort. It looks far more like a handle to my eye than the crude lump of wood S & J supplied.

And I'd bet London to a brick it is Beech. Apart from looking like Beech, I don't think they have used any other wood for saw handles in Britain. After having made that bald statement, someone will show me a (factory) handle made from some rare & exotic wood, but it'll be the exception to prove the rule.....

Cheers,

Top effort that!
Well done.
It is a pity that Spear and Jackson didn't market that saw with a handle to match the blade's performance.
The saw itself is a wonderful tool.
Your handle is a great complement
Tom

Andy

I was trying to get a handle on the timeline ( ), but without much success

These are saws from 1961, 1970 and 1974:

S and J 1961.jpgS and J 1970.jpgS and J 1974. No.88.jpg

The first saw is primarily aimed for a presentation market with it's Rosewood handle. The second saw use a "tropical hardwood" (sorry Ian , two out of three saws without a Beech handle ) and the last saw looks similar but on closer inspection, and along with the two earlier saws, has a vee notch ahead of the finger guard. Your saw would appear to be more simplified still with the plain oval hand hole so I am leaning towards a more recent date.

Regards
Paul

PS: Good to see Scribbly Gum back on the Forum. The seven year itch?

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Andy

I was trying to get a handle on the timeline ( ), but without much success

These are saws from 1961, 1970 and 1974:

S and J 1961.jpgS and J 1970.jpgS and J 1974. No.88.jpg

The first saw is primarily aimed for a presentation market with it's Rosewood handle. The second saw use a "tropical hardwood" (sorry Ian , two out of three saws without a Beech handle ) and the last saw looks similar but on closer inspection, and along with the two earlier saws, has a vee notch ahead of the finger guard. Your saw would appear to be more simplified still with the plain oval hand hole so I am leaning towards a more recent date.

Regards
Paul

PS: Good to see Scribbly Gum back on the Forum. The seven year itch?

Hahaha - yes can't seem to get rid of that itch
Thanks Paul for the welcome.
My S&J is the later R88 Spearior and the handle is even more plain than Andy's.
The blade, however, is simply wonderful. Holds an edge beautifully and is a dream to use.
It is probably the ugly duckling of my handsaws
Tom

Well done with the handle Andy.
Like the others say the saw part is good but they really let things slip with the handles. At least they are beech so an OK blank to work on. I had a couple laying about the shed for a few years waiting to be saved.
Was something to do early in the covid shutdown. As I did not need two 7 tpi crosscuts I made one a rip.
I did not get as far as a lambs tongue however.
Regards
John

Thank you for all the comments and inputs. And thanks to the resident saw expert, Paul, for sharing the catalogues.

Yes, looks like the saw is from a more recent period. I did a quick measurement using a dial caliper and it appears that the blade isn't tapered ground. Glad to know that the it is of good quality, though. It's considerably more flexible than the blade on the lemon Disston.

While working on the handle, I was curious how the blade slot is made if one fashions a new handle from scratch. The slot on the lemon Disston runs all the way to the top the handle which would be easier to make.

IMG_20210207_192328141.jpg

However, for handles like the one on the S&J saw, how do you keep the top part uncut (highlighted in red below). The slot needs to be deep enough to fit the blade, the shape of which is roughly shown in blue dotted line. And would you just use a handsaw with minimal kerf to cut the slot?
IMG_20210207_192310349.jpg

I think that some sort of circular blade would have to be used. Maybe a little like the cutter set up that IanW uses to cut a slit in his brass backs. Or you could modify any blade that was so shaped and make for an easier cut in the handle.

Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

I think that some sort of circular blade would have to be used. Maybe a little like the cutter set up that IanW uses to cut a slit in his brass backs. Or you could modify any blade that was so shaped and make for an easier cut in the handle.

It's interesting that Disston patented the closed-top handle, but seem to have abandoned it before S &J. I don't know when taper-grinding of handsaw blades ceased, but I have a post WW2 Disston (bought by FIL's father in the early 50s as far as I can determine), which is taper ground and reasonably well-tensioned. Its handle needed a bit of attention to make it acceptable too, but it wasn't as crude as the one Andy started with.

I'd say the factories used a circular saw to cut the blade slot in the handle for sure. I haven't had the opportunity to cut one in half, but that would tell you quick-smart how they dunnit (Paul has cut at least one in half, so he should be able to tell us). The pre-WW2 D8s & D20s have a 'double' curve on the back of the blade, and need two separate cuts to match.

To use a circular saw to cut the slot for a full-sized handsaw, you'll need an extremely thin blade of quite large diameter, & a very secure way of holding the handle to present it to the saw. By the time you finish the cut, you'll have over a 3rd of the saw in a closed cut with teeth making contact all the way round - a very good recipe for a grab and a damaged handle if not some missing digits!

Early on in my saw-making, I had trouble cutting a dead-straight slot in backsaw handles so I got the idea of starting the slot with the same slitting saw I use for slotting the brass backs. NOT one of my more brilliant ideas. These saws are meant for shallow cuts in metal & have no set whatever. I did make a crude jig to keep my fingers well away from the pointy things, but had a couple of frights when the saw grabbed the whole shebang & tossed it across the room. I decided it was much better to cut them by hand. Others have evolved various jigs for the job, like clamping a saw blade on a sheet of ply or MDF at the right height to cut the slot & pulling/pushing the handle past the fixed blade. However, I decided to just take courage & saw it like I'd make any other accurate cut. By taking it gently & switching sides frequently, I found it wasn't that hard to get a clean, straight slot in most woods, but occasionally, the saw will follow a soft patch (or my attention lapses ) and the slot will end up wonky. I can tell you from bitter experience it's best to just bin the handle there & then, attempts to 'fix' a crooked slot usually end up with something worse. It helps that I have a selection of saws of different plate thicknesses, so I can usually match any blade to within a few thou, which is plenty close enough, the slot only needs to be a loose fit. Backsaw handles usually need a curve at the back of the slot too, but it's pretty shallow and easily done with one of these "knife" saws I've made for the job: Handle saws.jpg

Handsaw handles are a notch up the scale. Besides having a deeper slot, the curve at the back is much more pronounced & there is an extra curve cut in the 'return' between grip & cheek on many older saws. This is a D20, which has a shorter projection into the return than a D8: Saw plate 2.jpg

But it still complicates the slot, and moreso if you want to keep the top of the slot closed as on the original. But with this under-sized stair-saw: Handle saw.jpg

- and a bit of careful sawing & testing, I can get a good fit. I had to be extra careful with that D20 panel saw I re-handled because the cheeks of a D20 handle are narrower than a D8's, and I had to be ultra-careful not to cut right through. But I got there in the end without breaking through: BW handle c.jpg

The knife saws cut on the pull stroke, which works better on thin, un-supported blades, but the one for large handles is a 'push' saw. I tried it as a pull saw, but it didn't work very well for me so I reversed the teeth and it was much better. Its blade is a bit thinner than a typical handsaw (at the handle end) at 0.030" thick, which allows for a teeny bit of set & it's plenty stiff enough to push without danger of buckling.

Going to this extent is OK for someone who makes dozens of handles, but a lot of extra trouble for just one or two......

Cheers,

Andy

It was Disston who invented the "cover top" style of handle with their No.80 "Choice" back in 1874! That saw quickly morphed into the ubiquitous D8 and after 1928 it became the D-8. Of course other saws in the Disston range used the same "cover top" handle and other manufacturers too copied the style. So a little ironic that the S & J has the covertop and Disston does not. After Disston was sold to HK Porter the brand went fairly rapidly down hill from market leader to market dog.

I think Mountain Ash is correct in that the kerf for the blade was cut with a circular saw of the appropriate diameter. I did use a slitting saw to replicate this once and it was reasonably successful, but fiddly to the point I have no interest in doing it again. An ordinary circular saw blade is too thick so a slitting blade has to be used and being thin, they quickly overheat and distort on hard timbers. If I am replacing a handle I will just cut straight through. Disston's argument, and indeed their selling point, was that it gave greater support to the blade than just the saw screws, but that is debateable as it relies heavily on the kerf and the screw holes being absolutely exact. On a production line that may not be easily replicated. To mate up exactly the blade would have to be fitted and the holes drilled while the blade was in position. I don't think it was done that way.

A while back I cut away one cheek of a D8 thumbhole saw to see exactly the profile beneath so I could match it up to a saw blade. From memory, the slitting saw I used was about 150mm diameter for the replacement handle.

P1070061 (Medium).JPGP1070062 (Medium).JPG

The other way to achieve this profile is to make up a small narrow saw with teeth following around a curved toe. The teeth are sharpened to work on the pull stroke, but this is even more tedious and demanding!

By the way, thank you for the compliment, but I am more of a researcher than an expert .

Regards
Paul

I have just seen that Ian must have been posting or composing at the same time I was. I think we are on the same page with most of the comments. Ian's warnings about cutting the slot with a circular saw are very apt. I made up an improvised jig to mount a hand held circular saw beneath a table.

The second curve was cut with a saw similar to those Ian depicts in his post, but it was agricultural, and purely functional, compared to his so don't look!

P1070063 (Medium).JPGP1070064 (Medium).JPG

The teeth are not very even around the curve, but it works ok. With the deeper saw plate I pressed down on the back of the blade as I pulled the saw and this assists cutting the curve. It also got a little bit of rain damage when a storm blew into the shed which is why it is 'speckled."

Regards
Paul

Wow, thank you for the thorough explanation and pictures! Circular saw makes sense, and yes I can imagine the difficulties in securing the handle blank. Don't think I'll risk my digits for that... The "knife" saw though is a very clever idea, I never thought of it.

So much knowledge and experience on this forum, all this information brought out at a drop of a hat!! Thank you for sharing!

Now I really gotta find some time to finally try having a go at sharpening the saw...

Cheers,
Andy

Originally Posted by Andy_B

Now I really gotta find some time to finally try having a go at sharpening the saw...

Cheers,
Andy

Andy

What? you want it to be sharp as well? Geez, you want everything!



This may be of interest:

Sharpening Western Saws - YouTube

Everything you wanted to know about saws but were afraid to ask.

Regards
Paul