Thread: Some handplane questions

Originally Posted by IanW

- just insistent.

- look whos talking.

ok, don't mind being sensitive...as long as I'm not nuts.

Originally Posted by IanW

those smug types who normally lay into pine and softer hardwoods don't know what real wood is, do they? That'll stir Schtoo a bit.

:eek: ....careful Ian. He'll loose his cool with them words.

Originally Posted by IanW

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(Actually, I reckon there are some woods that were never meant to be planed, at least not when they are dry. I was trying to clean up a couple of bits of Ironbark on the weekend for a motor frame for my lathe - even my Academy saw super hard monster was seriously challenged by the stuff!)

I know what you mean. ...thats when the scrapers come out I suppose... and dare I say it.....the machinery.... shhhhhhh I'm really enjoying my card scraper on cedar at the moment.

Originally Posted by IanW

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Well, sort of true, 'specially if you're not a fraidy cat and prepared to use a grinder. :eek:
Most of the thick aftermarket blades ain't laminated, though 'ol fella - they's hard stuff all the way through.

yes I see what you mean. I haven't had any experience with 5mm thick unlaminated ones.........

Originally Posted by IanW

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Fortunately, many are HSS, which you have to try really hard to soften - it can cop 'cherry-red' without significant tempering.
Though with a little attention to detail such as prepping the wheel and using a light touch, you should never look like reaching tempering temperatures, even on carbon steel. Haven't hurt any of my Hock blades, yet.

I always say....if your fingers arn't burning the blade should be fine. Probably sounds stupid, but it seems to be good enough in practise. I don't have any problem with a grinder wheel up around 3000rpm on my blades, as long as my fingers are close to the edge to monitor heat.

AlO wheels a must though, and dressing......no point with the grey stones I think.

You've probably mentioned before, which of the aftermarket blades do you prefer ? ......what are they again......Hock, A2,,,,,,,another one I forgot the name of ....prices ?

Originally Posted by apricotripper

- look whos talking.

Well, c'mon - if you can't debate, wot's life for???

Originally Posted by apricotripper

-
ok, don't mind being sensitive...as long as I'm not nuts.

Sensitive, yup that's you alright Jake, now pass the quiche, will you darling?

Originally Posted by apricotripper

You've probably mentioned before, which of the aftermarket blades do you prefer ? ......what are they again......Hock, A2,,,,,,,another one I forgot the name of ....prices ?

OK - time to be serious. I've sung the praises of the Lee Valley A2 (HSS) blades often enough I reckon most of you think I work for Rob Lee, but I don't, unfortunately - wouldn't mind a few employee discounts! It's just that you get very decent blades that hold a good edge, at the best prices I've seen. Got 4 or 5 of them, and love 'em all.
I also have 2 or 3 Hock blades. These are not HSS. They are good blades, thick enough for me, and certainly a lot thicker than originals. They don't hold their edge as well as the A2s, but they are better than standard blades, and noticeably easier to sharpen to a very keen edge than the A2s.
Then there are the blades in home-made jobs like my double-radiused scrub plane used for scooping out chair seats, etc. This is made from a thumping great machine hacksaw blade, about 1.5mm thick, no cap iron, but works well with its wooden wedge snugged up and as close to the cutting edge as I can set it without causing it to choke. It seems to hold its edge forever, but then chair seats are usually made from pretty soft stuff.
Have just started working on a couple of new rebate planes, one which will use a Terry Gordon blade bought for the job at least three woodshows ago, and the other blade will be ground out of a chunk of HSS I got last year from McJings (it's intended for making lathe scrapers but looked ideal for my purposes). Neither of these blades has had serious use yet, of course, so it remains to be seen how they go.
And finally, yep, I still have 3 or 4 planes with their original blades in regular use. One blade, in fact comes from an Indian knock-off I picked up at a flea market many moons ago. The body was cracked, so the price was welly cheep - I thought it would be useful for a few parts. As it turned out, the blade is quite thick AND decent steel - it holds an edge better than the Stanleys, if you can believe it.

[Edit: Forgot to mention an old (Australian) Stanley-made HSS blade I've had for about 20 yrs. That was my first foray into an after-market blade, and it was a very good experience. Same thickness as the standard blades, but noticeably tougher. It has a chunk of HSS welded to the end, about 40mm or so, and about half of it is now used up. I reckon it will see me out!
Plus a few old blades in several old woodies I use occasionally (2 sets of hollows & rounds and a couple of moulding planes. One or two of those may be laminated, can't remember. They are all hard, tending to a bit brittle, but work well for their intended purpose, which is to cut mostly softish, straight-grained material.]

So good blades can be found in all sorts of places, and all sorts of blades can be pressed into good service, as your own adventures attest!

I hope we haven't completely hijacked this thread - good thing Dr Cohen hasn't waded in, or we'd never get out alive......

Avagoodone,

Yes, we have hijacked it and with good reason that will assist Mr. Woden somewhat, at least with where he wants to go with the little #4 he has.

If that Derek comes here, we will deal with him properly and thoroughly too.


Uhh, dunno where you picked up the idea I use my tools on toy woods. I have a mild allergy to pine (makes my nose go nuts), a stronger allergy to cedar, hemlock isn't my cup of tea, but the local cypress looks nice, but I have never used it.

I stick to hardwoods, the harder the better. Nothing like some of the Aussie stuff, but curly hard maple isn't exactly simple stuff to plane, nor is twisted/tortured keyaki. I use the tools on proper woods, even though I am stuck with nice, tool friendly cherry right now.

Jake, don't get me wrong here, I have some serious steel kicking around here too, but I also find that even the flimsy thin blades work fine provided they are well supported and sharp.

So, if I had the genuine and economical option of thicker blades, I would most certainly use them, but I don't and I don't really think I am missing out on some magical benefit. Right now, the standard blades are working, and working well.

If I hit something that the thin blades give me trouble with, I'll let you know.

(Expecting to see some harder stuff soon enough. Not worried even a little bit though. )

Have to agree with you, Schtoo - hard Maple puts a blade to the test. Not as bad as our really tough woods, but certainly up there with the likes of Jarrah when it comes to taking the sweet edge off a plane blade. My workbench is Sugar Maple, made when I had no access to heavy-duty machines, so a lot of the dimensioning was done the hard way. Gave me a lot of sharpening practice!

Never figured out why it's so hard on edges - doesn't sem to be full of silica like some of our woods, and it's only a medium density wood compared with most Eucalypts, but something in it abhors a sharp edge!

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

OK - time to be serious. I've sung the praises of the Lee Valley A2 (HSS) blades often enough I reckon most of you think I work for Rob Lee, but I don't, unfortunately - wouldn't mind a few employee discounts! It's just that you get very decent blades that hold a good edge, at the best prices I've seen. Got 4 or 5 of them, and love 'em all.
I also have 2 or 3 Hock blades. These are not HSS. They are good blades, thick enough for me, and certainly a lot thicker than originals. They don't hold their edge as well as the A2s, but they are better than standard blades, and noticeably easier to sharpen to a very keen edge than the A2s.

How much do these Lee Valley A2's cost after postage ? ....I'd like to get one.

Originally Posted by IanW

Then there are the blades in home-made jobs like my double-radiused scrub plane used for scooping out chair seats, etc. This is made from a thumping great machine hacksaw blade, about 1.5mm thick, no cap iron, but works well with its wooden wedge snugged up and as close to the cutting edge as I can set it without causing it to choke. It seems to hold its edge forever, but then chair seats are usually made from pretty soft stuff.

I've got an old spokeshave like tool that I thinks for chair seats too. Never used it though. But I know those blades you mean. I fished one out of a skip on day, and use it for nickers.

Originally Posted by IanW

Have just started working on a couple of new rebate planes, one which will use a Terry Gordon blade bought for the job at least three woodshows ago, and the other blade will be ground out of a chunk of HSS I got last year from McJings (it's intended for making lathe scrapers but looked ideal for my purposes). Neither of these blades has had serious use yet, of course, so it remains to be seen how they go.
And finally, yep, I still have 3 or 4 planes with their original blades in regular use. One blade, in fact comes from an Indian knock-off I picked up at a flea market many moons ago. The body was cracked, so the price was welly cheep - I thought it would be useful for a few parts. As it turned out, the blade is quite thick AND decent steel - it holds an edge better than the Stanleys, if you can believe it.

I believe it.

Originally Posted by IanW

[Edit: Forgot to mention an old (Australian) Stanley-made HSS blade I've had for about 20 yrs. That was my first foray into an after-market blade, and it was a very good experience. Same thickness as the standard blades, but noticeably tougher. It has a chunk of HSS welded to the end, about 40mm or so, and about half of it is now used up. I reckon it will see me out!
Plus a few old blades in several old woodies I use occasionally (2 sets of hollows & rounds and a couple of moulding planes. One or two of those may be laminated, can't remember. They are all hard, tending to a bit brittle, but work well for their intended purpose, which is to cut mostly softish, straight-grained material.]

....jessus , another quote to answer ......

I know that blade you mean. A mate of mines got one of them. Looks like a weak sort of join too, as though its gonna break off, but doesn't. I sharpen his blades up for him on occation and I remember that one being excessively hard.....just the odd dull red streak coming off the grinder....'whens this gonna end' ...thought going through my mind.

Originally Posted by IanW

I hope we haven't completely hijacked this thread - good thing Dr Cohen hasn't waded in, or we'd never get out alive......

Does it really matter if we have hijacked it ?..... conversations skew off in all sorts of directions naturally anyway. Pretty hard to avoid I think.

Dr Cohens bit of a lurker now I'd say. no..joking. busy man no doubt.

From Schoo:
So, if I had the genuine and economical option of thicker blades, I would most certainly use them, but I don't and I don't really think I am missing out on some magical benefit. Right now, the standard blades are working, and working well.

NO !....your not missing out on any magical benifit. I've never meant to imply that if I have......( hope I haven't contradicted myself somewhere :eek: )

There is a benifit I've found. But the whole topic is diverse enough I'd say for us all to have differing experiences.

I've think I've worked out a way to describe the difference with pictures. If interested when I get some time clear of the kids ( lovem. but god its hard to be a 'modern' man) , I'll sharpen up and take a couple photos of my thick vs thin planes in action....scribble all over the pictures and try and describe the differences...... I'm quite willing to accept the possiblitity of being wrong.... who knows, maybe I've missed something. If so, I'd sooner iron it out know than continue flogging a crook idea uno.

but only if your intesested..... I don't wont to be blasting the screen with big pictures for nothing, looking like some kind of arrogant prick.

seeya, some kids crying.

Put the pix up, you arrogant prick

Although I certainly do not consider that I have anywhere near the indignities of Jake, Ian or Schtoo, I thought it might be worth relaying my experience last night with a modern Stanley #4 (plastic handle, tote and knob and all).
Over the last week or so I have diligently followed the tuning suggestions by Garrett Hack - the handles are tight and solid, the sole has been flattened, the throat has been tuned by filing open the top edge of the front of the mouth, the frog has been moved to the right position to provide maximum support to the iron, the bed has been flattened to support the iron, the iron has been correctly ground, the cap iron has been ground to fit the blade properly and positioned a millimetre or so behind the cutting edge and the pressure of the cap iron has been adjusted to be firm but not overtightened.
Last night was the plane's first outing on some difficult spotted gum. It performed beautifully - slicing through really snarly areas of difficult grain, and spitting out nice fine curlies. If this says anything, it is that, as I think Jake said right at the beginning of this thread, the things you really need to ensure are that the plane is well tuned and the blade is sharpened properly. Even with sub-standard modern steel in the iron, and plastic handles, you can still get a really good result. The only concern I now have about this plane is how long the iron will keep its edge. I didn't notice much dulling last night but then I was only using it for three or four minutes.
Cheers

Jeremy

I have a Stanley #4 with a Lie Nielsen blade fitted to it. It was a step up from the standard cheapie blade. 3/16 thickness compared to 1/8 I had to get a new screw to hold it. Back the topic the thread is 3/16 UNF easy to get if you need one.

I have to agree with Jake. Thicker blades will be better. The increased distance from the body to the edge is fairly meaningless unless you have an excessive amount of clearance making the bevel long and thin to the edge. Otherwise with a normal 10 or 12º of clearance the force is going straight back almost parallel to the beveled face.

Laminated blades are the bees knees. They have a very thin hard side possibly 1/16th and then a ton of mild steel behind them. Easy sharpening and the edge can be much harder because it can be made much finer and harder.

I think this discussion is argued a bit by the point "all other things being equal" which they never are. You can't change just one thing without changing others so the point can be argued to wits end. There will of course due to diminishing returns a time when there is no gain from making it thicker but the standard blades are pretty thin, which is why Veritas and Lie Nielsen make theirs thicker. Laminated blades are thicker up to 3/8 but then they need to be because the mild steel backing isn't as strong as tool steel.

Studley

Originally Posted by Studley 2436

I think this discussion is argued a bit by the point "all other things being equal" which they never are.

Not quite sure what you mean, Studley - I think Jeremy's story illustrates Schtoos and my point - he paid attention to detail and got a pretty ordinary plane to work very well, thin blade and all, by the sound of it. Certainly, he would get an improvement by putting a thicker blade in it, but paradoxically, he will probably notice it less, now that he has done all the fettling so well. But he WILL gain a very noticeable improvemnent in edge-holding by going to an A2 blade or similar - particularly with his penchant for Spotted Gum, so it's still a worthwhile modification IMO.

I think we all agree that thicker blades have useful advantages over thin ones. The argument seems to have gotten down to how thick you go before you are just wasting your time, in a standard Bailey type plane. My trials and errors (lots of the latter!) suggest to me that after around 1/8th" or 3.5mm, the benefits are at best questionable. The LV blades that I favour (as much for their edge-holding as anything) are 'only' 3/32", but have a very solid feel if well bedded and matched to a properly fitted cap iron. If you are convinced that thicker still is better, I have no hard data to disprove it, so the thicker-still crew is just as right as anyone until proven otherwise.....

Sorry but can't help my naturally sceptical nature....

Cheers,

Sorry Jake - you asked about costs - I meant to check for you, but got sidetracked.

Hock blades (approx 1/8th" thick) about 48 to 50 $Au (at current Aussie $ rate) from a couple of mail-order places like LV for the 4,5 and 4 1/2,6,7 sizes respectively.

LV's own A2 blades are about 48 and 52 $Au for the same sizes.
You have to add postage to these costs, but a bargain if you know someone visiting Ottawa, compared with:

Carbatec, who also carry the LV replacement blades, listed at $69 and $72 for the sizes quoted above. Considerably more, even with postage, I suspect, but if you're in a hurry.........(?)

Cheers,

Ian, what about the LN blades to fit stanleys? Only if you have the info handy, I could get off me lemon & sars to find out myself I guess...

Edit: $54 & $74 AUD from LN Australia, plus postage I guess. Got off me date


Cheers...................Sean

Originally Posted by scooter

Ian, what about the LN blades to fit stanleys?

Hi Scoot - no worries, I didn't make it clear enough - the numbers I gave refer to Stanley sizes, i.e. the numbers 4 and 5 (2" wide blades) and the 4 1/2, 6 and 7 which take 2 3/8" blades. Sorry about the pounds shillings and pence measurements, but our mates across the way are sticking tenaciously to that relict of imperial empire....

Cheers,

when I say all other things being equal Ian what I mean is for instance where you originally posted that a thicker blade will increase the distance between the edge and the bed. So how much does that distance affect things and how much is the thicker blade?

Change one thing and likely another will change as well so whatever way you go there is some compromise somewhere, and it is hard to tell just what is giving you the result or otherwise

Studley

Jake, what Sean said. Put up the pix you arrogant prick.

I know what you are trying to say there, and I don't disagree either. One plane, two blades, one thick and one thin, the thicker blade should work better when the going gets difficult. Most of the time, the going is pretty easy. Read the grain, set for a fine cut and go for it. No problems, no worries and a thin blade will work as well as a thicker one will almost every time.

Just that when things get difficult, like reversing grain, angry woods and other misfortunes that a thicker blade can and does help. It sure as shoot doesn't hurt things.

But 90% of the time, the thicker blade doesn't give much, if any benefit to a well tuned plane. Doesn't make things any easier for someone just starting with handplanes (like me), other than they should learn what a good plane does, how nicely it does things and where it's limitations lie. Then replicate that with their own plane, given pointers as to where attention needs to be directed, and where it doesn't matter very much how things are.


My own #4 is the economy Record model, plastic handles, crappy blade, cheap, cheap, cheap all the way. I can convince that to chatter if I do something stoopid, like set a too heavy cut, but most of the time it just gets on with things and works well. It's not even set up to support the blade all the way down, the frog touches the blade down there, but the sole doens't making the opportunity to chatter even better, but it still doesn't most of the time.



Jake, please do a comparison of thin and thick blades. I can't since I only have thin ones (for now) and I'd really like to know when they are beneficial and when the benefit is not worth the price of admission. Also, don't use a woody, they largely resist chatter even with a thin blade provided they are in reasonabable condition.


(You didn't read this, but the jointer I made is designed to be able to swallow 1/4" of blade if I want it to, but since the 1/8" is doing fine, no reason to change it.)