Thread: Some handplane questions

Hi Ian
I think your drawing demonstrates a couple of interesting things. The first blade being thinner has a big disadvantage because the bevel does not sit up against either the sole or the frog. The end of the blade is lacking support. *G* re reading your post just like you say.

I am not sure that it is such a big disadvantage for the thick blade to be back up the frog a bit because it is just so thick it won't be bothered by this.

Anyway back to what you were saying and you are right making the blade thicker and thicker isn't going to work once you go beyond a certain point. Your drawing of the thick blade made me think of something. Suppose you have a plane with it's many parts and they all carry the load in one way or another. Suppose the blade is the weak link in the chain getting a thicker one will allow the rest of the tool to perform to it's full potential. Thus better performance. BUT going to a real monster blade you might find that the frog or the sole or whatever is now the weak link so you make no gain.

Quick maths my result was the distance from the edge of a 1/8th blade to the corner on the frog is 5.54mm same distance for a 3/16 blade is 8.3mm assuming a 35 degree angle on the bevel. Not a vast increase.

Studley

Originally Posted by Studley 2436

The first blade being thinner has a big disadvantage because the bevel does not sit up against either the sole or the frog. The end of the blade is lacking support.

I am not sure that it is such a big disadvantage for the thick blade to be back up the frog a bit because it is just so thick it won't be bothered by this.
Studley

Studs - True.
Point 1: That's just what the cap-iron has to counter.
Point 2: Somewhere, the cutting force has to be transferred from the cutting edge to the frog to the plane body (and ultimately, the fist wot's pushing it all). If it could be supported right to the end of the bevel, theoretically, a thin blade would be no different from a thick blade in this respect - as I've tried to show in the diagram, a thick blade is nothing more than a bunch of thin blades, stacked in a way that each succeeding 'blade' gives maximum support to the preceding one. But somewhere, that support has to be taken over by the frog, and that's why I say there's little to be gained if the blade is so thick that the transfer point starts any further up the frog than it needs to. Sure, a mm or two either way is probably of small consequence.

But there is a little more to it than this - the thick blade also has more of a damping effect on slight vibrations - what Jake referred to as 'flexing' - and this is going to give you a definite feeling of 'solidness'. It's a moot point how much the cap-iron pretensioning is doing for vibration on a thick iron, (some well-known planemakers say it's a waste of space - but they also advocate wooden planes, and wooden blade-beds (& wedges) are better at damping vibration than iron). However, I can't see that it would be counter-productive, and you have to transfer the lever-cap pressure somehow, on a Bailey design...

And I agree with you that there are several other potential limiting points in the Bailey design. You're dead right that the frog can be the next problem. Early on in my career of plane fiddling, I tried to make a cheap #3 work like a real one. The underside of the frog wasn't even machined, so after cleaning it up, and machining the mating flat on the sole (with a cup stone in a drill press, so it weren't quite purrfect, but close) and screwing it all back securely, it was still a POS! I decided that this was because the toe of the frog made no contact with the sole. (If you look at most of these types of planes there are extra machined surfaces on the toe and the sole, so that when you tighten the frog screws, it bears down on the sole - the 'handyman' version dispensed with this extra bother). Consequently, no amount of further fettling was going to make any worthwhile difference - the cutting point was cantilevered about as far from the real transfer point as you could get. A thick heavy blade would have made a difference, I'm sure, but it was never going to work like a real plane. I gave it to my then 8 year old son, who managed to make the sort of shavings he was happy with. I think it spent a southern winter out in the weather a few years ago, and is now waiting in a landfill for the archeologists of the future to find. Maybe they will 'restore' it, but I hope they don't think it represents the pinnacle of planecraft!

OK, I think I have shot my mouth off even more than usual in this thread.
Cheers,

:eek: Phew! I've just read through this thread and am now completely bewildered. Had I realised woodworking was going to be so intellectually challenging I would have picked another hobby to get into.

No, but seriously, although I've been left slightly dazed by all that I really appreciate the detailed and fascinating responses. It's certainly opened my eyes to the complexities behind getting a good shaving. I do buy into the side of the arguement that says if everything else has been tuned to perfection well then surely a thicker blade will make an improvement - albeit probably very small. And conversely, I suppose it's the case that if something else is awry - like a dull edge - then a thicker blade isn't going to make a damn bit of difference.

Anyway, the only reason that I thought about putting in a thicker blade was because I happened to have a selection of them in my possession. Had I not had them then I wouldn't have gone out of my way to acquire one - as a newbie my woodworking skills will have a long way to go before any of this will likely make a difference. Incidently, the blade I was going to fit was a very old laminated Alex Mathieson & sons blade from a wooden plane - although tapered it's 4mm thick at its thickest.

However, given all that would be involved in altering the plane body and having mulled it over in my mind I think I'll just go for the best tune up I can achieve with a standard iron at the moment. From some of the comments here it would seem this is good enough for several woodworkers way more experienced than me - so I'm hardly likely to find a thin blade inadequate at this early stage.

Now, enough of the complicated science for a moment, what's the best wax to stop the whole shebang rusting?

Ps. does it matter if the blade is a bit wider than the cap iron?

Originally Posted by woden

Now, enough of the complicate science for a moment, what's the best wax to stop the whole shebang rusting?

Mate, you just love the ones that get people excited...

I like to use U-Beaut Traditional Wax or if I am feeling lazy, a squirt of sheep juice (aka liquid lanolin), but I know that others have their own special preferences and some make up special brews of jungle juice.

So watch this space to see the feathers fly as the proponents of this or that do battle.....
Jeremy

Wax oil to stop it rusting whatever you have lying around. I use a bit of Sturdees secret wax recipe aka Black Jack because I have lots of it. Bit of WD40 on the bits you can't get to easily is fine.

I reckon fitting a tapered blade to a plane designed for a straight blade would be a nightmare nigh on impossible. Mind you it isn't hard to make a Japanese style plane to carry the blade and you can design it to suit yourself regarding blade angle and mouth opening.

Studley

Originally Posted by woden

Anyway, the only reason that I thought about putting in a thicker blade was because I happened to have a selection of them in my possession.

Strewth, Woden - you could have saved all this trouble!

I think you are making the wisest decision - to stick with the stock standard bits and get them up to speed first. Once you've got it singing the right sort of song, try a thicker blade and see for yourself what difference it makes. I do think trying to fit a tapered blade is going to be a lot of bother, especially as the taper is going to play merry hell with any depth adjustment - moving the blade fore & aft will tighten or loosen the lever cap.

Originally Posted by woden

Now, enough of the complicate science for a moment, what's the best wax to stop the whole shebang rusting?

Woops - here you go again. :eek:
The topic was hotly debated in a thread a couple of weeks ago - there were even more opinions than on blade thickness.
My vote goes for paste-wax and regular use. A goodly number of respondents on the aforementioned thread plumped for the product of our BB provider, and it's certainly as good as, or better than any other brand, IMO.

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Strewth, Woden - you could have saved all this trouble!

. I do think trying to fit a tapered blade is going to be a lot of bother, especially as the taper is going to play merry hell with any depth adjustment - moving the blade fore & aft will tighten or loosen the lever cap.

bullshyt .... definetly nothing subjective about that either. The tapers not great enough .
and remember the lever cap is sitting on a curved chipbreaker anyway, yes ? ...I have no problem adjusting all my modified stanleys, and I'm pretty ruff when it comes to mods...

yeh, but try that thin blade. Probably take a few months to learn how to sharpen it anyway....by that time you'll probably get the ##### with it and buy yourself a powered planer

As for rust, mild rust doesn't really hurt anything other than your pride, except for the back of the blade nearing the edge.....uno can grind out the rust on the bevel, but not as easy on the back.....and a pit right on the back edge automatically means a dull blade no matter how sharp the rest of it is, (then you'll have to learn how to backbevel )

......... wd-40 for me. Dash to the shed when I hear a storm on the way to squirt the back edge of every blade I've got in the shed. that little plastic tube thingys good, cause you don't have to remove the blade (and disturb the settings) to give it protection....

But then wd-40's a cancagenic (spelling ? ) isn't it.....so somebody told me

carcinogenic is the word you are looking for Jake.

Mind you just about anything is if you have enough of it. They gave a rat cancer once my making it drink coke. The amount worked out to you or I drinking a bathtub of it everyday.

All this proves is that rats are tough one bathtub would kill me long before I got cancer.

Anyway anything chemical whatever good idea not to breathe it in.

How did you go putting holes and stuff in laminated blades? Mine are all solid single pieces that just taper etc. You drive them into a wedged slot and that's how they hold themselves in there.

Studley

Originally Posted by apricotripper

bullshyt .... definetly nothing subjective about that either. The tapers not great enough .
and remember the lever cap is sitting on a curved chipbreaker anyway, yes ? ...I have no problem adjusting all my modified stanleys, and I'm pretty ruff when it comes to mods...

OK, OK, I yield to your experience. Never tried it meself, was just thinking it would loosen or tighten a bit, but as you say, the taper's long, and the actual amount of movement small.

But you still got problems getting the spigot on the adjuster yoke to reach through really thick blades and engage the slot in the cap iron.

And yep, agree with Stud's sentiments, living is carcinogenic - if you live long enough, you WILL develop some sort of tumour, somewhere - gauranteed.....

avagoodnight,

Jake,
Try the liquid lanolin in the areosol can - it dries off and leaves a tacky film of lanolin. One spray lasts months, and stops my rust causing hands from making finger and palm prints appear on anything metal. I find WD-40 doesn't hang about anywhere near as long as the Lanotec.

Might mean you have to run out to the shed when it storm a bit less, and spend more time changing nappies!

Originally Posted by Studley 2436

How did you go putting holes and stuff in laminated blades? Mine are all solid single pieces that just taper etc. You drive them into a wedged slot and that's how they hold themselves in there.

Studley

Ta Studley....carcinogenic ...hard eh,,, to be careful about these things but not to worry too much about it either.

I can't do anything flash like drill holes in them....no, they come already slotted. Matherson blades and the like from old woodies. Uno they've got a slot in them already to take the old fashioned chipbreakers.

I trim the slots with cuttoff disks....and weld on little pieces....and use the grinder and wire brush a lot......In that link I quoted from my first post of this thread shows it all. (back in page 1 somewhere I guess)

From Ian:
OK, OK, I yield to your experience. Never tried it meself, was just thinking it would loosen or tighten a bit, but as you say, the taper's long, and the actual amount of movement small.
Ahah ! gotcha !

But you still got problems getting the spigot on the adjuster yoke to reach through really thick blades and engage the slot in the cap iron.
Jezzz that was short lived.

Arn't you being clever with words like 'spigot'.... quite like that word though. I usually call it a doodad.

yeh yeh....you need a welder to extend the sprigot. But dropping weld blobs ontop ant too hard. Just like making dribbly sand castles at the beach with the kids.

And yep, agree with Stud's sentiments, living is carcinogenic - if you live long enough, you WILL develop some sort of tumour, somewhere - gauranteed.....
Ta mate ! .... burst my bubble why don't you. I DID think I was going to live forever. You have a good night too (ya friggin killjoy )

Thanks Clinton for the tip on Lanotec.....Where do you get if from ? I love changing ####ty nappies.

I was just off to bed (us old pharts need our beauty sleep - though someone who'll remain nameless has been telling me lately that it's not working) but couldn't let you off lightly......

Originally Posted by apricotripper

Arn't you being clever with words like 'spigot'.... quite like that word though. I usually call it a doodad. [/I]

Spigot, nipple, - it's just the doodad that sticks into the izzywazit, that pivots on the whatsitsname that's screwed by the wingwong to make the cutting thingamabob move up & down. You know what I mean. yerself.

Originally Posted by apricotripper

And yep, agree with Stud's sentiments, living is carcinogenic - if you live long enough, you WILL develop some sort of tumour, somewhere - gauranteed.....
Ta mate ! .... burst my bubble why don't you. I DID think I was going to live forever. You have a good night too (ya friggin killjoy )
[/I]

Sorry, mate - but the prognosis isn't good, you know. The trouble with life, as Woody Allen noted, is no-one ever gets out of it alive.

Now go attend to those nappies like a good boy.........

Woden, yer a ^%&^%*&*(&) ($!^@&^%@! &*!%$^@$^%$!!, but thanks all the same...

Clean up what you got, make it tick and see what happens. Later, after the plane is singing a sweet tune, give it a thicker blade. That was it's not going to be correcting anything, and you will get a plane that will not go stoopid on you one day, just for the fun of it. Also lets you work out what sharp is on a thinner blade. If the Stanley you have is old enough, the blade will be laminated with a very thin strip of hard stuff where it counts, soft everywhere else. Means the things are dead easy to sharpen.

I'll take a pic if anyone doesn't believe me, a clear line where hard and soft meet. Interesting, and shoots Jake clear out of the water with the 'easier sharpening thick lamniated blades' garbage too.

Second on the lanolin here. Works great. I don't have lanotec, but some cheapo stuff that has descented lanolin in it, and works just like WD40 most of the time. Great stuff.

On the plane I just got (these things are rare here, gotta keep mentioning it!) I brushed non silcone car wax in with a brass wire brush everywhere. Should stop the rust on the cast iron, easy to do and gets the wax right in there while cleaning away the crud. I didn't spit polish my plane though, since it wasn't really needed.

When I get around to putting a thicker blade in the #6, I will prolly buy something 1/8" thick, with another chip breaker doohickey. Then rivet on some bits to the chipbreaker so the adjuster will engage. Don't want to do anything to the #6 that isn't reversible, and making the chipbreaker reach down is easy to change, where was welding onto the adjuster is permanent.

Wouldn't hesitate to weld up something more common though.


And nappies full of that stuff, the boy doesn't do that too often and I can avoid it most of the time. But when he does, it's not a quick clean up, we are talking a bag full of, err, stuff after the fact... :eek:

Caventry Fasteners in Lismore, or the usual suspects of Bunnings/Repco/Blackwoods and the rest.
I'm thinking that I should just blue my tools like Bob Smalser does, and forget about rust. Something thats a bit hard to reverse though, if you don't want it.