Thread: Handsaw restoration

Ian

I was fiddling around today rubbing back a couple of saw plates while pondering another problem. It is one of those rather mindless activities that allows thoughts to roam (completely unchecked in my case).

I was using WD40 and two problems emerged. Being a thicker consistency than water it seemed that the paper clogged very quickly. If I had been using water, I would have dunked the paper in the bucket and rinsed off all the gunk, but not really an option with the WD40. Possibly with kero that would be possible. Certainly with turps that was exactly what I did, although not a bucket full, just a "Glad" castoff kitchen container from SWMBO.

I then started to think that perhaps I should use water initially and only use another fluid towards the finish. The I started to think that perhaps I am fussing. Use water and then give the plate a spray of WD40 or similar as they are moisture repellents/ moisture dispersants (is that a word?).

My impression also is that material moved with an oily lubricant tends to be deposited in the minute pits and crevices of an old plate and is only partially removed by wiping. It really needs to be flushed out with copious quantities of fluid: This becomes a bit expensive with anything other than water.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Firstly we have to ask what we are trying to achieve.
1. Improved appearance
2. Reduced friction
3. Preservation of the saw plate against the elements.

It's a worthwhile experiment .. good job.
It's also going to depend on the original condition of the item and the likely desire or necessity to preserve/discover historic or aesthetic qualities.

I was a bit clueless about the whole molasses/citric/electric/... cleanup ideas for quite a long time.

The plane irons .. and then chisels .. that I have have all been cleaned up on a brass wire-wheel on a grinder (ooops, where'd the guards go?) and with W&D.
Planes I hadn't had to address other than the flat, outside surfaces.
It was when I first looked at a rusty brace that I thought ... "Ahah ... nooks and crannys"

The thing with saws is ... they're flat. You couldn't ask for an easier cleanup ... in a physical sense.

I had some very rusty saws ... but the ones I tend to get now might only be half mucky ... and they are often the only one like it that I have.
So proceeding carefully - not necessarily slowly - and checking as you go is desirable.

I definitely wouldn't want to use water on a saw that I care a bit about - not because it is so awful, but because the WD40 option is more attractive to me. I wouldn't like to use kero or metho or turps myself ... I wouldn't care for the smell for a start. I don't rate the WD40 option as 'expensive' ... unless you're going to use the aerosol cans. 4L at Supercheap Auto is showing at $38 (I paid $35 at Repco) ... and squeeze-spray bottles were $1 at Kmart. I'm on my second one cos the seals died in the first one. Repco had a WD40-branded one that I didn't buy ... I assume that one would last properly (he says optimistically).

I reckon that 4L will last me a loooong time ... more than a year. I did try water once and thought it had one advantage in that you can have a continuously flowing 'lubricant' so visibility is good ... but the negatives outweigh I think.

I have some pics of recent new arrivals (from the US) ... plus five saws I've spent some time on in the last two weeks and have sat out on the back patio for roughly that period ... and a video I've just taken on cleaning down a rusty saw. I'd already looked into the face side of this saw ... but I went through addressing the back side as if I had a new saw and I wanted to start to see if I could find any makers info.

It's going to take me a while to skinny it down memory-wise and then upload to vimeo.

Cheers,
Paul

dammit ... I keep saying W&D, but what I actually have in the lower grits is rolls of strong-cloth-backed 'paper' that came from an auction at a kitchen-making business. The backing lasts forever in this application. You will see it in the video.

Great write up. The only other option to test Evapo-Rust.
I have some that I've successfully used on small parts. It works like electrolysis in that it only attacks rust, not the metal, but it is simple soaking like citric acid.
I haven't got any rust bucket saws to test, maybe I'll pick one up at the tool sale tomorrow.

Originally Posted by pmcgee

dammit ... I keep saying W&D, but what I actually have in the lower grits is rolls of strong-cloth-backed 'paper' that came from an auction at a kitchen-making business. The backing lasts forever in this application. You will see it in the video.

Paul

That sounds more like emery cloth. I will be interested to see.

Regards
Paul

PS. I posted a question on your EC Atkins thread. I thought you might know the answer.

Regards
Paul

I think you got it ... some of it looks like ...



Here's the five outside that have all had some attention in the last week or so.

20140221_235304 (Medium).jpg

There have been crazy winds on and off ... they are covered in fine dust ... but you can tell from that they have a thin oily coating. We are in a dry environment here, so it's less of a challenge ... but I like the WD40 a lot.

If you can tell from these photos, these newcomers are in variable states of mucky-ness ... on average quite good these ones ... but the one in the video very (raw) rusty. I'd already checked into the face of that one, so I used the back of it .. as if I was looking into a face-side.

20140221_235042 (Medium).jpg 20140221_235059 (Medium).jpg

Paul

It may also be belt sander/linisher material. Emery cloth tend to be more flexible I think. They obviously stand up to the lubricants ok?

Regards
Paul

Stand lubricants? ... 100% ... these pieces have been on the go for say a dozen saws to varying extents.

(hmmm ... no sound ... probably an advantage, but ...)

Paul

That video is most interesting. I have a heap of used/broken/discarded belt sander belts which I think are the same material as you are using and I have quite a range of grits. I am now anxious to try that. Also I hadn't appreciated that the likes of WD40 was available in large quantities; Hence my comment that it was expensive (well it is expensive in an aerosol can).

I have two more old saws that are partially rusted so I might do another comparison on them as they are in similar states. After that I'll have to knuckle down and start sharpening them. I am just about ready to go on that, at least as far as the equipment is concerned.

One of the most difficult aspects, for me that is, is photographing the plates so they appear as they really are. Tricks of the light can make the results very deceptive both advantageously and to their detriment.

I suspect that light making the plate appear shiny is similar to the effect you see on a tar road where in the distance the surface appears like a mirror finish or at least covered with water.

Thank you

Regards
Paul

Here are some before photos of four saws I picked up on the weekend
1 and 2 A Disston with unusual medallion placement;saw blade straight with good remaining depth;Handle a bit nasty but I have some apple handy and will try a repair.

3 and 4 A Disston ?D8 with good handle and blade

5 and 6 A Warran and Ted Superior. First saw I have found with an intact nib. Handle and Blade good.

7 and 8 A Spear and Jackson;handle has a cross bore to avoid cracking;Handle and blade good.

9 and 10 A thumbhole handle only;sadly cracked but with a full set of nuts and an older medallionDSCN2706.jpgAttachment 305376DSCN2706.jpgDSCN2707.jpgDSCN2708.jpgDSCN2709.jpgDSCN2710.jpgDSCN2711.jpgDSCN2712.jpgDSCN2713.jpgDSCN2714.jpgDSCN2721.jpgDSCN2720.jpgDSCN2721.jpgDSCN2713.jpgDSCN2712.jpgDSCN2711.jpgDSCN2710.jpgDSCN2709.jpgDSCN2708.jpgDSCN2707.jpgDSCN2720.jpg

Originally Posted by hiroller

Great write up. The only other option to test Evapo-Rust.
I have some that I've successfully used on small parts. It works like electrolysis in that it only attacks rust, not the metal, but it is simple soaking like citric acid.
I haven't got any rust bucket saws to test, maybe I'll pick one up at the tool sale tomorrow.

Hiroller

Thank you. I saw a reference yesterday to Evapo-Rust, but I am not familiar with it at all. If you had any luck at the tool sale, please feel free to post any results and methodology.

Regards
Paul

AJOE123

Good buy with your saws.

Your mystery Disston has the same medallion placement as a No.16, but that saw had a straight back and a carved handle. So I think it may be a No.76, which was a skewback with a plain handle. I think PMcGee picked up one recently and he can offer more information.

It looks to me like you have some busy days ahead restoring those. I'll look forward to seeing how they come up.

Your pictures were good but I couldn't identify the medallion as it had too much paint obscuring the medallion. No.76s were only made up until the 1920s you will need to establish the medallion fits the timeline.

Regards
Paul

AJOE123
Interesting pickup
the first one looks like a 76 to me and under the paint the medallion might be the same as mine as well
therefore 1896 - 1917

Bushy stop giving my saw to that McGee chap

the interesting thing is the saw nuts
I thought some of mine may have been replaced as the one at the top was/is smaller then the next two. I note in your photo they seem the same as mine. ie one small then two large then the medallion
see mine here post no 48 and 56 saw #7and then again at post 65 with more photos
I note yours had the magic string repair as well
I glued the tote up today, we'll see how it goes.

Originally Posted by Sawdust Maker

AJOE123
Interesting pickup
the first one looks like a 76 to me and under the paint the medallion might be the same as mine as well
therefore 1896 - 1917

Bushy stop giving my saw to that McGee chap

the interesting thing is the saw nuts
I thought some of mine may have been replaced as the one at the top was/is smaller then the next two. I note in your photo they seem the same as mine. ie one small then two large then the medallion
see mine here post no 48 and 56 saw #7and then again at post 65 with more photos
I note yours had the magic string repair as well
I glued the tote up today, we'll see how it goes.

Ooops .

I remember now. It was Paul that identified it (was that another of those saws he maintains he has mislaid and should be returned to him?)

Looking forward to seeing some results

Regards
Paul

Hi Paul,

Following our contact, I thought I would also do some fiddling with W&D vs electrolysis. In a previous thread I showed my Disston after W&D (Disston from Garage sale) but then decided to try electrolysis in addition to the hard slog.

Here are a couple of shots of part of the blade that had all the red rust removed and were no longer producing any obvious rust at all. In fact, although I had abandoned ideas of retaining what little etch I had left, there was no etch visible at all to worry about by the time I stopped the W&D and that was using 600. So one needs to be super careful if the etch is important.

My electrolysis bath was similar to yours:
P1020102.jpgTwo bars of mild steel on either side of the saw blade in the middle. Sadly, all I had was a 20L drum. Note the colour of the electrolyte after a short while which is noteworthy give the appearance of the blade in the next two images;

P1020100.jpgP1020101.jpgThese images show the residual 'black rust' which is an oxide of the iron and is black instead of red (chemistry not the issue here) but nevertheless is reluctant to move with W&D.
As a 'user' I suspect this level of residual blemish would not be terribly important as long as the blade is smooth.

After rotating the blade end for end after several hours and being mindful of trying not to get tide marks - I failed at this, here are the finished images:

P1020107.jpgP1020108.jpgNow, as Bushy pointed out, getting a believable image of a saw blade is really quite difficult but undoubtedly, a lot/most of the black rust has gone and, sure, there is still some pitting evident but all in all, the result is quite pleasing. Worth noting that I touched up the blade with 600 W&D after the electrolysis but that wasn't a saga at all. Knowing how quickly the saw plate can rust after exposing this fresh, raw surface to the elements, I hastened to apply a very light coat of G-15. I'll wax it with paraffin wax before using and after sharpening.

Now, the handle. I had decided not to do too much to it as I was conscious of the history and was aware that it was due to be a user in due course anyway. So, all I did wash wash it under running water with Simple Green. I planned to leave sanding to the absolute minimum but had to make good the previously noted crack.

Wow! Was this handle thirsty or what? I don't believe that I've ever encountered a piece of wood that sucked up moisture like this handle did! It was like a very dry sponge. I left it for a couple of days to dry but unfortunately, I think the absorption of all that water had caused it to crack in another site - see later. This needed the CA treatment as well. Once dry to the eye, at least superficially, I applied tung oil but initially flooding it. Well, I couldn't keep up! It just sucked up the oil and sucked up the oil like I had never seen. I repeated this approach for the next four days and was only then just getting a small amount of residual oil on the surface - like enough for me to actually wipe off. Here is an image of where I'm at now after applying some dilute (in turps) Cabot's flooring poly/oil mixture:

P1020120.jpgNote the original owner's initials and the now repaired crack from the front of the handle to the medallion hole. Handle probably still needs a bit of work but the saw will be a user... Not sure I should bother.

Finally, just on the question of what to use as a lubricant when using W&D on a saw plate. I think the whole idea is to use a vehicle to remove the swarf. Just about anything can be used and comments have already been made about WD40 or water. I suggest using a soapy type solution - something that not only helps with lubrication but also helps to bind (through ionic action) some of the removed products. Don't forget to get some rust protector onto the surface reasonably soon after leaving that raw surface. My 2 bob's worth...

Cheers
Brian