Thread: Handsaw restoration

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Hiroller

Thank you. I saw a reference yesterday to Evapo-Rust, but I am not familiar with it at all. If you had any luck at the tool sale, please feel free to post any results and methodology.

Regards
Paul

Hi, Evapo-rust is available locally (though twice the price of the US). It is however, comparable to the cost of WD40.
You can read how it works here: http://www.evapo-rust.com.au/How%20It%20Works.html
There is blog here on another forum with before and after shots on a handsaw and backsaw: http://lumberjocks.com/donwilwol/blog/28007
Seems to be equivalent to your results.
The big advantage is that you don't have to watch it like with acid and it doesn't involve electricity and hydrogen like electrolysis
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgWHbpMVQ1U#t=171 )

I did pick up a couple of user saws from the tool sale, a D8 4 1/2 point rip and a D8 9 point crosscut.
They are both clean, straight and reasonably sharp. However, not enough rust to be a worthwhile demo.
There were some rust buckets there but none hand handles worth saving. I think I'd rather spend the money on some 8in 1095 plate and make my own.
When I think of how much money I've spent on abrasives and cleaning products just for restoring tools, I think it would have been cheaper to buy a better tool in the first place - but not as much fun of course!

Originally Posted by Dovetail

Don't forget to get some rust protector onto the surface reasonably soon after leaving that raw surface. My 2 bob's worth...
Cheers
Brian

After using acid or electrolysis you need to remove all moisture from the metal. I use a hairdryer followed by either G15 or 3-in-1 oil. Leave the oil on (don't wipe off) and put in the sun for several hours (this time of year, or a heater in winter). Then go through the polish stage as far as you like. After polishing through to Autosol, the saw is unlikely to rust for a while, depending on how stored.

Remember that saws are spring steel, and after acid or electrolysis (and I suspect Evaporust) they lose spring for a period until the hydrogen dissipates. Try putting a spring, eg dividers, under pressure in an acid bath, and wait for the sound of the spring snapping. Therefore whilst I use a lot of citric acid on rusty tools, I always use mechanical methods to take rust off saws. If you must use acid on saws do not leave in the bath for more than 30 minutes (check and scrub after after 15, and put back in if necessary). If it needs > 30 minutes save the saw nuts, and perhaps handle, chuck the plate; I assume you paid no more than $2 for the saw and that makes for cheap saw nuts.

A slight revision to above statement - I do use a very quick dip in citric acid to remove the blue from new spring steel plates.

Cheers
Peter

Originally Posted by Sawdust Maker

the interesting thing is the saw nuts
I thought some of mine may have been replaced as the one at the top was/is smaller then the next two. I note in your photo they seem the same as mine. ie one small then two large then the medallion
see mine here post no 48 and 56 saw #7and then again at post 65 with more photos
I note yours had the magic string repair as well
I glued the tote up today, we'll see how it goes.

I forgot to mention before - the leading smaller bolt was pretty standard ...at the very least with Disston ... until someone came along and started undoing things later on
Cheers,
Paul

A note of caution from the US link ... on the Evaporust.
"I soaked the RIP in evapo-rust. When I took it out I went outside and washed it off with the hose. At that point I could make out some markings that I thought was an etch. I thought it said something like “Blue Boy” Warranted Superior”. I didn’t think anything about it, assuming I would be able to read it better once I wiped it off. The problem is it wiped off with the water. I wish I had payed more attention to what it said. I googled “Blue Boy” Warranted Superior but didn’t get any hits."
Cheers,
Paul

Here we go again. I try to keep the narrative down to minimum and let the pix do the talking. I worked ou that the hardest thing is remembering which pic is which and what was done to it. Also it pays to make a few notes. Finally I worked out that the solution is to write on the pix. As the background material is a piece of melamine a whiteboard marker works very well and can be rubbed out easily.

So why didn't I do that? because I only twigged towards the end of the exercise . I seem to be getting slower, if that is possible.

Ok: So to the test:

I had two old saws; A Sandvik with a rubbishy plastic handle and an unknown brand with an ugly monster of a handle I made about 10 years ago from what looks like a piece of pine, packing crate material (no exaggeration there). It stemmed from the days when I did not know what I was doing. It's different today of course in that I now know I don't know what I'm doing .

Pix

Handsaw resto 002.jpg

There is nothing very flash about these two, although I plan to follow the restoration through with them including new handles and sharpening. They are in very similar condition with surface rust, but no flaky rust. In fact they were "treated" to the electolysis method all those years ago, but have been unloved in the meantime and not been used.

The first saw I used electrolysis and then rubbed with water as the lubricant on the LHS and WD40 as lubricant on the RHS. The second saw, the Sandvik, was just rubbed with water on the LHS and kerosene on the LHS.

I particularly wanted to see if any of the methods was noticeably better than another and which was easier in both time and effort.

I also forsaked the Wet and Dry paper and employed used belt sander material. I started with 100grit and only went to 120 grit.

Handsaw resto 003.jpg

Unknown brand saw:

Straight out of the electrolysis bath

Handsaw resto 005.jpg

Just rinsed off with water and a scourer

Handsaw resto 006.jpg

Rubbed with water as the lubricant with 100 grit

Handsaw resto 007.jpg

Rubbed with 120 grit and water

Handsaw resto 010.jpg

The RHS dry scoured

Handsaw resto 008.jpg

This is the RHS rubbed with WD40 and 100 grit

Handsaw resto 009.jpg

RHS rubbed to 120 grit:


Handsaw resto 011.jpg

Now to the Sandvik with no electrolysis and the unknown saw to provide some comparison:

LHS rubbed to 120 grit with water only and RHS rubbed to 120grit with kero lubricant:

Handsaw resto 012.jpg Handsaw resto 013.jpg

Conclusions next post .

Regards
Paul

Conclusions for rubbing back are:

PmcGee's cloth backed sanding material is an absolute ripper. For all but the final stages of finishing I would not trouble myself with Wet & Dry ever again for this purpose. However, a word of caution in that both he and I used worn out material. In my case they were cast offs from timber sanding applications.

I suspect that orbital sander discs could also be used to the same effect and you may well have them in finer grades.

The wet use did not seem to effect the belts at all, but the WD40 and the kerosene both had a tendency to clog the material. Water was a superior performer in terms of ease of use and in fact messyness too, but in terms of final result there was little difference. I think the sanding material will last longer with water, but all three lubricants would give quite a long sandpaper life.

The use of electrolysis in conjunction with the rubbing action resulted in a cleaner saw plate but was just the same in terms of smoothness so if you are chasing the aesthetic effect you might want to consider the two processes together.

I tried to take pictures in the same light, but again be mindful that there will be some variance that is a little beyond my capabilities as a photographer.

Regards
Paul

I returned home late this evening from the big smoke and called in at the Post Office. The Brass Darkening Solution had arrived and I was eager to try this out on the etch.

I used the older model D8 panel saw which has a really nice lustre to the plate, which is by no means perfect, and a modest etch. This is how it started:

Handsaw resto 018.jpgHandsaw resto 019.jpg

and a little solution is dabbed over the etch

Handsaw resto 020.jpgHandsaw resto 021.jpg

OMG what have I done. Have faith! I rubbed it back with some 2000grit Wet and Dry using a small hardwood sanding block.

Handsaw resto 023.jpgHandsaw resto 025.jpgHandsaw resto 026.jpg

I will go through the process again, but I ran out of time tonight and am too weary as well. It looks as though it is an improvement. The irony is that with these pix, it is the first time I can really compare the before and after .

Regards
Paul

I tried the WD40 and the W&D today - clogged up too quickly as you note
I've some belt sandpaper somewhere - will have to dig it out
start at 60 grit?

Also tried the gun blue on the 76
will take photos tomorrow and put them up on my saw reno thread
seems to work but would be better where there is a better etch

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

... It stemmed from the days when I did not know what I was doing. It's different today of course in that I now know I don't know what I'm doing .
...
Regards
Paul

Me too but sometimes I forget and think I know stuff

Originally Posted by pmcgee

I forgot to mention before - the leading smaller bolt was pretty standard ...at the very least with Disston ... until someone came along and started undoing things later on
Cheers,
Paul

What threw me was the picture on Distonian which shows the three nuts the same size

Looks like you posted while I was typing

that etch looks darker to me
The chap where I picked up my bottle of Brass Darkening solution said it was a mild acid
I got a raised eyebrow when I said what I was going to use it for

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

I returned home late this evening from the big smoke and called in at the Post Office. The Brass Darkening Solution had arrived and I was eager to try this out on the etch.

How did you find the BDS sat on the blade?
When I have used it, first cleaning with some isopropyl alocohol 'cos I don't have any acetone, it sits very much above the metal and doesn't just flow easily across the metal. Sometimes it didn't want to sit where I wanted it and I had to shim the blade around the edges to move the blob around.

I've thought of wetting a paper towel with it and lying the towel on the blade.

How long did you have it on the blade?

Yes, it is (or contains) selenious acid. Not 100% I'm thinking ...

Originally Posted by pmcgee

How did you find the BDS sat on the blade?
When I have used it, first cleaning with some isopropyl alocohol 'cos I don't have any acetone, it sits very much above the metal and doesn't just flow easily across the metal. Sometimes it didn't want to sit where I wanted it and I had to shim the blade around the edges to move the blob around.

I've thought of wetting a paper towel with it and lying the towel on the blade.

How long did you have it on the blade?

Yes, it is (or contains) selenious acid. Not 100% I'm thinking ...

Paul

I didn't clean the plate any more than the buffing done a few days earlier (just fine Wet and Dry). I left the solution on for around 2 -4 minutes and then went straight to the 2000grit W & D. It does have something of a frightening look, but rubs off quite easily. The reference I read performed the process three times. I will probably get to do this again at least once more probably on Thursday. I have several other saws that display an interesting etch and I would like to enhance those too.

Regards
Paul

Selenious Acid or Selenous acid:

Be very careful if you use this chemical. Here's a quote from Wikipedia:

Like many selenium compounds, selenous acid is highly toxic, and ingestion of any significant quantity of selenous acid is usually fatal. Symptoms of selenium poisoning can occur several hours after exposure, and may include stupor, nausea, severe hypotension and death.^[6]

Some time ago I had to 'age' some new brass fittings - latches, hinges, hasps etc., and used ammonia fumes. The process worked well and although working with ammonia has it's own drawbacks, at least they are unlikely to be fatal.

I didn't know that selenious acid could be used for the same task but, knowing what I know now, I probably wouldn't have used it, but having said that, I suspect the concentration of the acid in the BDS is very low. I'd be interested to see a MSDS on this product.

Ever heard of anybody in the gun blueing industry succumbing to this product?

Cheers
Brian

Originally Posted by Heavansabove

After using acid or electrolysis you need to remove all moisture from the metal. I use a hairdryer followed by either G15 or 3-in-1 oil. Leave the oil on (don't wipe off) and put in the sun for several hours (this time of year, or a heater in winter). Then go through the polish stage as far as you like. After polishing through to Autosol, the saw is unlikely to rust for a while, depending on how stored.

Remember that saws are spring steel, and after acid or electrolysis (and I suspect Evaporust) they lose spring for a period until the hydrogen dissipates. Try putting a spring, eg dividers, under pressure in an acid bath, and wait for the sound of the spring snapping. Therefore whilst I use a lot of citric acid on rusty tools, I always use mechanical methods to take rust off saws. If you must use acid on saws do not leave in the bath for more than 30 minutes (check and scrub after after 15, and put back in if necessary). If it needs > 30 minutes save the saw nuts, and perhaps handle, chuck the plate; I assume you paid no more than $2 for the saw and that makes for cheap saw nuts.

A slight revision to above statement - I do use a very quick dip in citric acid to remove the blue from new spring steel plates.

Cheers
Peter

Peter

Sorry for not replying to your comment before, but there was somthing nagging in the back of my mind and it came to me today. It is "Hydrogen Embrittlement." This is the phenomena you have described and very briefly it allows the entry of free hydrogen atoms into the metal during certain processes. These processes include galvanising, electroplating, chemical treatments and probably electrolosis, although I didn't find specific reference to that.

The correction process, as you have mentioned is to heat treat the metal subsequently. In your scenario, of course, it is a highly technical affair involving an "industrial" hairdryer ) With me it is simarly technical involving SWMBO's oven (when she has ducked out to the shops.) I saw reference to temperatures of 180C to 220C, but I think for saw blades 150C would be the upper limit and I would keep the oven at it's minimum temperature which is probably around 100C.

I did discover a couple of things. The heat treatment has a small envelop of opportunity and should be started within four hours. It is only a problem with high carbon steels under stress, although the tempering and hammering of a saw plate arguably introduces stresses as it is in tension. I suspect that the main area of concern would be in setting the teeth as brittleness there will be a problem.

Removing moisture from the saw will, as you have said, in itself be a barrier to further rusting. With the addition of oil or similar the saw plate should remain in good condition.

Regards
Paul

On the subject of etching, this is the link that sent me down the path of Brass Darkening Solution:

http://www.wkfinetools.com/tRestore/saw/etch-Sturgeon/etch-Sturgeon.asp


I think the site has been highlighted before by others, but it is worth mentioning again. It is also worth trawling though as there is a lot of information under the saws section on the home page, but you do have to go hunting and then one thing leads to another....Umm. I've heard that before, but where? )

Regards
Paul