Thread: Handsaw restoration

Originally Posted by Pac man

I would say you have a lot of work ahead of you

Agreed.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by NCArcher

Paul, I'd say you have a serious problem and should see someone about it. (that was pretty constructive )

Problem. Problem! What problem?

.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Sawdust Maker

I've a couple of (dodgy) totes we could marry to those pre primed blades and then we could outsource to a artist

could get real money returns for the right scene at the Rocks Markets

Nick

I don't think I want to make a scene.

Regards
Paul

I did a bit of scratching around on the plates this evening. Some faint etches showing up. The large plate is a Disston made from cast steel, but I have to do some more work on all of them.

These plates I intend to make user saws from with, obviously, hybrid handles made in the old styles rather than the blocky efforts of more recent times.

I have a couple more saws on their way to me and I think I will have enough material then to do the electrolysis test.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Nick

I don't think I want to make a scene.

Regards
Paul

That is really sad

The latest consignment of six saws arrived. They were for the main part what I expected: Not much. I bought them as I had spotted a Simonds amongst them and I particularly like the brand. If there was anything else there it was a bonus.

I quickly ran some wet and dry over the etch areas to see if anything was lurking beneath and for a moment, with the Simonds I thought I had come up trumps. It was one of their "Blue Ribbon" saws, which were their high end range and the etch, which on a Simonds is impressive and worth inviting people up to see, appeared to be totally intact. Then I twigged that I was hitting high spots. In my excitment, I hadn't looked closely at the line of the saw. Now I could see three distinct woofs at the toe of the saw: A disaster !

Anyhow I have two rusted specimens (a Spear & Jacksonand a Disston) which are from more modern times and totally sacrificial, which I will use for the electrolysis test. The Simonds I will aslo use primarily for electrolysis to see the effect on the etch. If all goes well I will cut off the end of the Simonds and make up a shorty. There are a couple of others that will be good for general user saws such as a D23 and I think a D8, but still I have to confirm the latter one.

I have taken some pix which I will put up this evening.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

....The latest consignment of six saws arrived.....

Love the nonchalance of your opening statement, Paul - sounds like daily or weekly occurrence!

How bad are the 'woofs' in your Simonds? They just might be recoverable, which would be a better outcome than cutting it down to a panel saw. However, a panel saw can be a very handy addition to your 'tools to go' pack, so if that is the only alternative, there's a primer by Bob Smalser on doing just that, and removing kinks & re-tensioning, if you haven't already seen it....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Love the nonchalance of your opening statement, Paul - sounds like daily or weekly occurrence!

How bad are the 'woofs' in your Simonds? They just might be recoverable, which would be a better outcome than cutting it down to a panel saw. However, a panel saw can be a very handy addition to your 'tools to go' pack, so if that is the only alternative, there's a primer by Bob Smalser on doing just that, and removing kinks & re-tensioning, if you haven't already seen it....

Cheers,

Ian

If i didn't get excited by such occurences I would be nonchalant, but I have to work on that a little more.

I think this particular Simonds is a bit too far gone at the toe, but because of that I may well give it a try and Bob Smalser's link is a good one. I have seen other stuff from him, but missed that article. Thanks.

I have a computer issue at home and have not been able to put up pix, but the first saw plate has been cut into three and I am ready to do the destructive testing when I get the opportunity. The Simonds has also been subjected to electrolysis and after about 15 hours in the bath it is looking good. The etch has not been harmed in any way.

More results to follow in due course.

Regards
Paul

Not quite sure how this post will go as the computer seems to be on "limp home mode," but will give it a go as I am waiting for my computer expert (daughter) to arrive.

The saw plate of the Disston was immersed to two thirds the length in the electrolysis bath for 24 hours. This is how it came out

Electrolysis experiment 005.jpgElectrolysis experiment 006.jpgElectrolysis experiment 007.jpgElectrolysis experiment 008.jpgElectrolysis experiment 009.jpg

The first picture shows the bubbled rust residue.
The second pic is wiped with a rag.
Third pic is rubbed for about ten seconds with wet and dry paper (240 grit).
Fourth pic is, well, just a better pic. You can make aout a very faint etch which seems to be "600," but I am not familiar with the model numbers of Disstons from the modern era.
Fifth pic is the plate cut into three sections for subjecting to stress.

Electrolysis experiment 011.jpgElectrolysis experiment 2 001.jpgElectrolysis experiment 010.jpg

The above pix show the three sections subjected to fairly extreme bending forces. There were no breakages, but none of the three sections returned to completely flat. This could be because I had bent them past the elastic limit (the curvature was more extreme than just bending the plate from toe to tote) or it could be because the steel is low grade compared to saws made in the halcyon days.

I then grabbed my sawset and reset the teeth in the opposite direction to the way intended to the maximum my set could do. No teeth broke. on any of the sections.

My conclusions at this stage are that the electrolysis had no adverse effects on this particular sawplate.

It is possible that a better grade of steel might be more prone to failure. It did also lead me to wonder how the information has come about that electrolysis can have an adverse effect. I suspect that part of the answer is that with old saw plates there could have been a fault or even a crack in the steel, which wasn't detected prior to treatment. When cracking occurred it was attributed to the electrolysis. Particularly, small cracks might not be noticed in the tooth line.

Regards
Paul

The second question regarding electrolysis was whether the process was detrimental to the etch.

My original thoughts were that as the action only took place on rusted sections, there probably was no adverse effect.

The Simonds No.72 panel saw provided an excellent opportunity to test this. A very cursory rub with wet and dry had revealed there was a full etch beneath the rust.

Copy of Electrolysis experiment 001.jpg

So I immersed the plate for full electrolysis action:

Simonds No.72 001.jpgSimonds No.72 005.jpgSimonds No.72 007.jpg

As you can see, the full etch was revealed and there was no damage at all.

This next picture shows why I am seriously considering cutting the saw down as the toe end looks like a Mexican wave :

Simonds No.72 002.jpgSimonds No.72 003.jpg

As you can see it is something of a challenge for even the most accomplished. It appears to me that the tension has gone completely from the saw plate at the lower end.

Regards
Paul

Thanks for showing us that

More meanders than the Murrumbidgee
I wonder whether it is worth trying the panelbeating exercise on that bend before cutting it off

Oh and what cutoff blade did you use?

Originally Posted by Sawdust Maker

Thanks for showing us that

More meanders than the Murrumbidgee
I wonder whether it is worth trying the panelbeating exercise on that bend before cutting it off

Oh and what cutoff blade did you use?

Nick

I am in two minds (neither mind is worth very much ) as to how I should treat this plate. I am inclined to agree with you that there is nothing lost in giving it a go as I can still chop off any part that has not responded to hammering. On the other hand the "Murrumbidgee" effect is so pronounced that the whole prospect is soul destroying. I'll have another read up on Bob Smalser. When I was last at IanW's house he showed me a special hammer for tensioning blades, but I can't recall exactly what it looked like or what shape it was except it had a wide head to it. Perhaps Ian can post a pic.

The cut off disc was a 1mm thin cutting disc from Smith and Arrow mounted on a 125mm angler grinder. Smith and Arrow did have a promotion running through these Forums (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f190/smith-arrow-monthly-specials-forum-183243). It went through the saw plate as if it wasn't there. I grippedthe plate in an engineer's vice while cutting, but clamped on a bench would have done a similar job.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

........ When I was last at IanW's house he showed me a special hammer for tensioning blades, but I can't recall exactly what it looked like or what shape it was except it had a wide head to it. Perhaps Ian can post a pic.....

Here y'go Paul. The hammer I showed you is a cross-pein with a planishing face: hammer 1.jpg

I found the head in with a bunch of old foundry tools & stuff when we cleaned out FIL's shed. It has an arrow & "1944" stamped on it, so must've been wartime issue. I cleaned it up & put a handle on it, but the face still needs more work on it - it's supposed to be polished to avoid marking your work. Saw plate is tougher than car body steel, so you would have to hit it excessively hard to leave marks from the small rust pits remaining on my hammer, but I should clean it properly one of these days.

Anyway, if you are looking for a hammer for working saw plate, look for something with a broad, slightly curved face (planishing hammers are readily available). The weight is a matter of choice - you have to make gentle hits & a heck of a lot of 'em, so a hammer that isn't too weighty is best. I notice in Bob Smalser's primer that he has a smallish planishing hammer in one pic, and a heavier-loking ball-pein in the one where he is working the saw, so not sure which one he favours...

Cheers,

PS, I reckon it's worth having a crack at the saw in question. Even if it's beyond redemption, I think it would be highly instructive to you, just to find out what it takes to move the metal. You'll get the idea of what force & persistence it takes to remove a dip or kink. Some will defy even an expert, of course, but you need to find out what the limitations are, & this would be a good opportunity, with nothing to lose. It would give you some confidence in tackling a less badly-damaged saw, and a good chance of a successful outcome. The main thing is to take it steady - much better to sneak up on the final job than have hammer-marks to explain away.....

Thanks Ian

I'll have a sort through my hammers and see if there is anything I can use or modify as I don't think I have anything exactly like yours.

Regards
Paul