Thread: Handsaws assistance

Dear Fellow Woodworker,
Congratulations on delving into the wonderful world of handsaws. My experience is no where near as vast as some who grace these forums, however, I'll share with you my thoughts.
If you're not already aware, I'd recommend making sure you're familiar with the difference between rip and crosscut saws. There are many articles out there on the specifics, but rip saws are used for cutting with the grain (eg. cutting tenon cheeks and dovetailing), and crosscut saws are used for cutting across the grain (ie. cutting wood to length).

In answer to your questions:
1. Essentially, yes, that list will be fine for what you want. Keep in mind that any saw can cut wood. Technically you do it all with a hack saw, however the 'right' tool can make it easier. Personally I would make some changes. In my opinion, always go for quality over quantity. As you have mentioned small furniture, I would limit it to one small rip tenon saw. This allows you to use it as both a dovetail saw and a tenon saw. Personally I think the dovetail saw is overrated, I know many would differ on that point, but thats what I've found. Adria has a very good sized small rip tenon saw which can be used for small tenons and dovetails, but LN also has similar offerings. I would compliment this with a similar saw of crosscut configuration (often called a carcase saw) which can be used for cutting timber to length and joinery applications such as cutting tenon shoulders. You could then add in a panel saw later on for cutting sheet goods and panels, however you can also cut these with a crosscut backsaw if you are careful. While useful, I don't think its essential, and I would go for a high quality carcase saw first.

2. I'm not all that familiar with all the range of 'cheaper' saws. As with any tool, the cheaper you go, the greater the range becomes. I had a stanley plastic handled tenon saw (I believe it was crosscut) prior to recent purchases. It did the job, but I wasn't that happy with it (It should be noted that it was unfairly compared to an adria tenon crosscut saw and hence lost). Other options include refurbishing old saws, or even making your own. I have no experience in either but there are other 'forum friends' who have successfully done both. For completeness I should also mention Japanese saws. These have a different tooth configuration from western saws and cut on the pull stroke rather than the push stroke. This allows for a thinner blade. Many woodworkers love them, and compared to the cheap western saws they are great and present good value for money. Having used good quality western saws I can't see myself going back to the Japanese saws. However that's just me. They are worth trying if you can get your hands on one.

3. This question has two parts and my answer is yes to both. Yes, cheap saws will still do the job, any saw will cut wood. The advantage of the high quality saws is quality, longevity and ease of use. They will not transform you into a master craftsman overnight. Bummer eh? But they will make things easier for you if used correctly. When used well they make a smoother, often faster cut which is easier to control in regards to lateral movement. I find them much more comfortable to hold and use for extended periods. The real question comes down to what its worth for you.

I hope that is some assistance to your journey. All the best,
Alastair

Hi Alastair, thanks for the informative response. So essentially you would be suggesting two saws to begin with:
1. a cross cut tenon saw
2. a rip tenon saw

How big a saw would you then recommend going? 10" for the cross cut and a similar size rip saw? Also how many teeth per inch should I be looking at?

I noticed that Veritas sell a cross cut and rip saw (although they refer to the rip saws as dovetailing saws which have really just confused me). These two saws would work out much cheaper than going the LN/Adria route.

Also curious if anyone else has any further suggestions.

Hi Newood,
Sensible advice from the Hacker.
I recently purchased the Veritas Carcass Saw pair from LV as general pupose saws and i find them excellent. Quality bits of gear, comfortable and easy to use. I wanted a medium sized tennon saw and figured the cross cut wouldn't go astray either so ended up with the pair. Not too expensive and highly recommended.

Originally Posted by NCArcher

Hi Newood,
Sensible advice from the Hacker.
I recently purchased the Veritas Carcass Saw pair from LV as general pupose saws and i find them excellent. Quality bits of gear, comfortable and easy to use. I wanted a medium sized tennon saw and figured the cross cut wouldn't go astray either so ended up with the pair. Not too expensive and highly recommended.

Hi NC,

I hadnt seen the two saws being sold as a pair - seem like very reasonable value.

NWW

NW - if boxmaking & small furniture are your things, I think the advise given so far is good. I know it's tempting to start with a cheapie, but the things I see in the hardware stores can hardly be called saws, IMO, and will most likely frustrate you & put you off back saws forever! The outlay for a pair of LV saws will be money well spent (if you didn't like them, you could always sell them on & not lose your shirt..), and at least you know the saw is unlikely to be the problem if you are having difficulty doing what you want to do with them.

My advice would be to look first for appropriate tooth pitch, on a saw that is about the right size for your hand & the work planned for it, rather than talk about 'tenon' or 'dovetail' or whatever, as they are very loose terms. For small work, a saw of about 15 tpi is excellent for cutting pieces around 50mm wide or less, and can manage 70mm at a pinch. You can buy saws of this pitch in blade lengths from about 200 to 300mm, and different depths. I would recommend starting with a crosscut pattern, as they are easier to manage, in many ways, and can rip almost as well as a saw which is filed to a rip pattern, over short distances. As you get more confident, you may want to try saws of coarser & finer pitch, depending on whether the things you cut are smaller or larger.

Ripsaws, most certainly have their place, & they certainly do a better job when well-tuned & used properly, so you will eventually want at least one - again 15 tpi is a good place to start, but you might want bigger & smaller versions in time.

The bad (or good?) news is that saws are just like planes: no one size does everything well, so if you develop any sort of relationship with small saws, you will inevitably end up with several....

Cheers,

NW, the saw gurus have replied and their advice is, as always, wise. I am a beginner and over the past three years have bought several high quality handsaws from
the US. If you can afford the Veritas saws from LV this is the way I would go. This gives you a good quality rip and crosscut backsaw at a reasonable price and I have not seen a negative word about these. If this is too expensive then I would think about a pair of cheaper Japanese saws, these are beautiful to use, but I prefer the look and feel of western style saws. At the end of the day buy the best you can afford, start sawing wood and have fun . Ross

Hi Newoodworker,
If you hang on a week or two, The HTPAA ( Hand Tool Preservation Assoc. of Aust. )
are having their 1st. of 3 Tool Sales for the year 2011.
These are all Second Hand, Hand Tools only. You will have a Ball.
It is held in Manningtree Street, Glenferrie Primary School, in Hawthorn,
off Glenferrie Rd. Mel. 45, D11
Sun.20th. March. 9.00am. till approx. 1.00pm. Ph.9 5237178 for more details & ask about the saws.
It would pay to be early as Parking is a bit of a problem.

Dear Newood,
Yes, I would suggest both a crosscut and rip backsaw to start. Judging by the planned work you have mentioned previously, I would recommend these being about 10-12 inches in the blade. I have just looked up the Veritas carcase saw pair as I had not come across them previously. They look like they could be very useful too you. The LV gear has a great reputation. Rob Lee (owner I believe) even visits these forums. In regards to your question about tpi, I think tpi is often over analysed. From my understanding, the fewer tpi, the faster and more aggressive it will cut, however you sacrifice smoothness. High quality saws, LV, LN, Adria etc. have well filed teeth and therefore cut cleanly, nicely and quickly around the 12-13ish area. 15 tpi is often used in dovetail saws for the fine joinery. I've been very happy with my 13tpi adrias, and the LV carcase saws only sit one point either side of that. As Ian said, (along with a lot of other good advice), you wont lose much by trying them. In my opinion they would be a great place to start. Once you've got some decent saws and have used them for a while, you'll have a fair idea of what you like and don't like. Thats the point at which you can branch out into other purchases with the confidence of that experience behind you.

In regards to your confusion about saw names, you're certainly not alone. The general definitions of backsaws are quite vague, and if I understand correctly have changed over time. Always look at the tooth configuration, the size, and the tpi to determine the saw. In brief: Dovetail saws are small rip saws with lots of teeth, circa 15 tpi. These are used for... surprise... cutting dovetails. Carcase saws (usually crosscut, but can be rip, just for confusion) are 10-14 inches in length and have around 12-13 tpi. They are used for cutting timber to length and crosscut joinery such as tenon shoulders. Tenon saws technically should be rip saws, but also can be found crosscut. They are usually larger than the carcase saw, up to 16 inches of blade and are taller to accommodate larger tenon cheeks. I hope that clarifies things a little bit more. With all of these things this is my opinion and understanding. I'm hardly an expert in the field.
All the best,
Alastair