Thread: Handsaws - why not teeth on both sides?

A complete guess here...

I've heard that the plate of older saws were tapered to reduce resonance.

Having tooth set at the top might affect this as the thicker plate & the top teeth would still need to clear the kerf caused from the bottomb teeth.

Evan

There were a number of saws that were double edged, although they would not have represented even one percent of all saws sold. There is also a fundamental problem if we go back in time, but I will come to that.

Simonds had a double edge, but you can see the limitation in the handle as it has to work upside down as well

Simonds No.65 Pruning saw from 1923.png

They also made a plumber's saw. Fine tooth for cutting pipe and coarser for cutting wood;

Simonds No.57 Plumber's double edge from 1916.png

Disston had some Plumber's saws too:

Disston Plumbers saw Nos. 5 and 6 from 1918.png

This is a Bay State general purpose saw. It was made by Simonds:

Bay State No.75 from 1916.png

Disston had a Flooring saw with teeth on both sides:


Disston No.19 flooring saw from 1918.png

Disston's No.14 backsaw had rip teeth on one side and crosscut teeth on the other. With the adjustable back it could be used also as a gauge saw for cutting to depth:

Disston No.14 backsaw from 1918.png


But I hear you say, "What about handsaws?" Well the immediate problem is that the better quality saws were taper ground resulting in the top edge of the saw being quite a bit thinner than the tooth edge. Teeth on the back would have immediately bound up in the cut. Of secondary consideration is that it would not be possible to make a comfortable handle to suit both sides. JP saws are not taper ground, but are traditionally very thin to begin with. This is only possible because they are pulled. The handles are,well...less complicated.

These saws above are all from the late teens and early twenties (1900 of course )

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Why is it that western handsaws have teeth only on one side?

Wouldn't it be a good option to have the "back" done as a zero set fine teeth?

I was watching the video below. The dude @ 5'40" used the back of the saw to notch the beginning of his cut. It struck me as A Thing..... why not Western saws? Obviously my Ryoba and some other Japanese saws are doubles, but not western?

Interesting!

Why Is It So?

Evan,

It’s a good question,and actually a few off the old saw makers did actually try too sell a few double toothed saws, but I think they were mainly marketing hype.


But a lot of older western saws are tapered ground.
Ie the top of the saw plate is thinner than the bottom but ,also the saw maybe hammer tensioned long the top.
This helps the saw cut straight and true.
Then also Disstion saws were what its called Breasted that is when you see some old saws and the top has an arc too it.

The final issue I see is also the saw handle itself , that took a few thousand years to evolve to what we most see and use now, you want one you can you either north or south,
That’s going to take a bit more evolution , Ye Ye Ye I know the Japanese use a very nice oval dowel shape [emoji6].

Cheers Matt.

Just thought off one western example the veneer saw.


And Paul beat me to the post by one thread by the look.[emoji23]

He was using the nib on the back of the saw to mark the start of the cut. The true purpose of this little nubbin has been the cause of much speculation and probably a few arguments but I believe the general consensus amongst saw aficionados is that its function is purely of a cosmetic nature.

I had not watched the video before I posted, but now I have.

What a wonderful video. The things I took away from it are:

I really loved that drilling machine. I think I want one.
I liked the extensive use of the slick, although at times I think I would have used a hand plane instead.
I am surprised the nib has remained on the hand saw. The most common reason the nib is no longer present is that it has been used in this way. The nib is purely decorative. (Somewhere I have the comment to this effect in a Disston publication, but I can't find it for the moment.)
I think if I was using those massive timbers I would have made sawhorses that didn't wobble.
I was impressed with the joinery.
Perhaps I was born too late. I like that style of building.
I have to get myself a pair of braces. It seems to be a prerequisite for that style of building.

Regards
Paul

I would note that I pointed to AFTER 5'40"....

That drilling rig is a bloody marvel!

Didn't want anyone to get distracted

Thank you everyone for your brilliant responses. As soon as I read "handle" I had the a-ha moment....

Though, it does seem to me, that a three inch section along the top of fine teeth would be good for starting cuts in tricky wood, or marking out

(BushMiller, I personally think the bloke is a bit too much into the hipster-wank routine. Surprised he wasn't smoking a corn pipe and swigging a sarsparella)

The guys have already nailed it I think with the taper grind and the handle. But i have to say, despite being far from an expert myself, the video does not, to me, demonstrate very good technique or sawing skills. I dont think you need to mark your cut like that, nor drag the saw backwards to start the cut, and the short ineffective strokes seemed a bit amateur to me as well. Or maybe i'm being a bit too critical... oh dear. I am a monster .

Cheers, Dom

Originally Posted by DomAU

The guys have already nailed it I think with the taper grind and the handle. But i have to say, despite being far from an expert myself, the video does not, to me, demonstrate very good technique or sawing skills. I dont think you need to mark your cut like that, nor drag the saw backwards to start the cut, and the short ineffective strokes seemed a bit amateur to me as well. Or maybe i'm being a bit too critical... oh dear. I am a monster .

Cheers, Dom

Dom

As soon as I saw the video I thought of your shed. I am glad you mentioned the sawing technique not being a fan of the short "chopping" action myself. There are two methods of starting a cut: One is to draw the saw backwards several times to create a flatter surface (you need four to six teeth in contact with the timber at all times). This only works for a crosscut tooth. Rip teeth won't cut on the backstroke. The second method is to drop the handle end of the saw right down so again the saw is in contact with more timber. Where we do this naturally and without thinking is with a backsaw.

No, you were not too critical and I had the same hesitation in commenting.

Regards
Paul

I just noticed this saw and one I have not seen before. It is a Diamond Edge No.135, which was the house name for Shapleigh Hardware. It has three cutting edges

Shapleigh Diamond Edge No.135.jpg

It looks to be factory made ( I will make further investigations on that) and not toothed later

Shapleigh Diamond Edge No.135 components.jpg

I am struggling to imagine a use for the teeth on the end and how you would hold the saw to use them.

This could be a case of going from the sublime to the ridiculous.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by woodPixel

I would note that I pointed to AFTER 5'40"....

That drilling rig is a bloody marvel!

Didn't want anyone to get distracted

Thank you everyone for your brilliant responses. As soon as I read "handle" I had the a-ha moment....

Though, it does seem to me, that a three inch section along the top of fine teeth would be good for starting cuts in tricky wood, or marking out

(BushMiller, I personally think the bloke is a bit too much into the hipster-wank routine. Surprised he wasn't smoking a corn pipe and swigging a sarsparella)

Evan

Now you draw our attention to the attempt not to distract!



I don't think it is necessary to get completely into character with the clothing and my mention of the braces was a little tongue in cheek. I recall somebody at work commenting that you have to be a little wary of anybody who wears both braces and a belt!

Having said that I am quite partial to sarsparilla myself, but it has not noticeably improved any of my woodworking activities.

Regards
Paul

Paul,

the end of the saw is serrated (not toothed) to help locate the adjustable back.

Graham

Thanks for that Graham. I didn't know, but it makes sense now you mention it.

Regads
Paul

I turned up another example of the double edge in a Disston set of interchangeable saws. This one (the 16" third from top) was for pruning:

Disston Handy Kit. 1917.jpg


Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Chief Tiff

He was using the nib on the back of the saw to mark the start of the cut. The true purpose of this little nubbin has been the cause of much speculation and probably a few arguments but I believe the general consensus amongst saw aficionados is that its function is purely of a cosmetic nature.

Chief

Just to prove you were right on the money:

The Nib. 1914 Disston Handbook on saws.PNG

From the 1914 Disston Handbook on Saws.

Regards
Paul