Thread: Harold & Saxon Chisels

Thanks Rod, i ordered some custom chisels about 2 1/2 months ago and hopeing to get them at the end of Oct. Thks

I thought I'd revive this thread to enquire about opinions on the Cabinet Range of H&S chisels. I was about to spend on a set of LN A2 bevel edge chisels at the Melbourne TWW yesterday, until I happened across Trent Powrie and had a closer look at his gear. Needless to say the LN's susequesntly looked unrugged and uninspiring by comparison, ignoring the fact that Trent's gear is designed and build specifically to handle Aussie hardwoods.

I'd like to have a set of 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and 1" H&S HSS Cabinet chisels, but I fear the Christmas budget won't stretch quite that far. So my choices are the TS cabinet range, or a smaller set of M2 items. Can anyone comment on the Bohler-Uddenholm steel that Trent uses for the Cabinet Range? I asked him what the steel was called, he tells be it's a steel that has no alpha-numeric code (like M2 or O1) but is significantly tougher that O1. He also commented on the superiority of this steel over A2 for Aussie timbers.

Please help me!

I would expect the TS versions to be quite tough, given the info from Trent. Of course, the ideal would be the HSS. But here is an idea ..

I've plumped to test the larger sizes (3/4" and 1") in HSS. The reason being that it is the larger sizes that take more abuse and require greater edge holding abilities than the smaller sizes (1/2" and below). Pushing a 1/8" chisel through hard Jarrah requires relatively little effort compared to a 3/4". The larger sizes are more likely to be forced harder, using a mallet blow, and therefore these benefit from being tougher.

So another option is to get 1/2" and below in TS, and 5/8" (or 3/4") and above in HSS.

The other issue I will raise is what you plan to do with these chisels? That is, use them as general bench chisels or for detail work such as dovetails? If the latter, you will benefit from small sizes, such as 1/8", 3/16", 1/4" and 1/2". If you plan to use them generally, then the spread you selected will work.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by kman-oz

Bohler-Uddenholm steel that Trent uses for the Cabinet Range?

Interesting that Trent sources his steel also from Bohler-Uddenholm. Bohler-Uddenholm makes the standard ANSI type tool steels however they also manufacture a large range of custom in house steels, for specific industries Trent must be using one of these house steels.

In all probability he using one of the steels listed on this page under cold working tool steels.

The following look like good candidates: K306, K600, K360, K190, K390. The Chipper/Viking, and many in the Vanadis range are a possibility but I do not think Trent is charging enough to be using these steels.

The steel I am interested in is S390. Would take a finer, sharper edge then O1 but would be 3 or 4 fold more abrasive and shock resistant then even cryo M2, thanks to the Powder Metallurgy Process. However it cost over $250 a meter. Yes I asked.

Originally Posted by thumbsucker

The steel I am interested in is S390. Would take a finer, sharper edge then O1 but would be 3 or 4 fold more abrasive and shock resistant then even cryo M2, thanks to the Powder Metallurgy Process. However it cost over $250 a meter. Yes I asked.

What dimensions?

Originally Posted by funkychicken

What dimensions?

60 x 8 x 1000 mm, in comparison a same sized piece of D2 is just over $120. The heat treating was also more costly as only one heat treatment place in Victoria is supposedly capable of heat treating it. A 60 x 8 x 100 mm plane blade I think would cost over $60+ to manufacture. It would however be leaps and bounds better then the best HNT M2 blades.

Down the track when I replace the blades in my HNT's I may consider making up a few 6 x 50 x 100 mm S390 plane blades.

According to a couple of sources (who are friends and world class planemakers), whom I respect highly regarding their knowledge of steel and blades for planes and chisels, the steel is less important than the heating done to the steel. Great steel and poor heat treating will result in a poor blade. Too hard to sharpen, too brittle to hit, too soft to hold an edge ...

There is probably not a whole lot of difference between various 01 and A2 and D2 steels. However, unless you use a knowledgable and experienced heat treater to complete the work on a blade, you can end up with garbage.

This plane has a D2 blade as standard equipment ..



Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks for the replies guys.

Derek, you make an interesting point, I must consider this too. I'll be using them primarily as bench chisels, but I'm looking at the bevel edge variety because I'm also interested in using them for hand cutting dovetails in future. Thanks for that.

TS, he was adamant, when pressed, that the steel he uses is not listed. I'd like to believe him regarding the qualities, but I'd much rather look up the numbers. I'm an Engineer, not a sales person.

I got me some Diamonds and Shapton's now, so sharpening TS or HSS should be a breeze.

Does anyone have any H&S Cabinet Chisels?

Dave.

Originally Posted by thumbsucker

60 x 8 x 1000 mm, in comparison a same sized piece of D2 is just over $120. The heat treating was also more costly as only one heat treatment place in Victoria is supposedly capable of heat treating it. A 60 x 8 x 100 mm plane blade I think would cost over $60+ to manufacture. It would however be leaps and bounds better then the best HNT M2 blades.

Down the track when I replace the blades in my HNT's I may consider making up a few 6 x 50 x 100 mm S390 plane blades.

Hmm.. How 'bout we grab a length and see if it's all that

Originally Posted by kman-oz

TS, he was adement, when pressed, that the steel he uses is not listed.

He may simple be protecting his interests, by not revealing the type of steel he uses. It is highly unlikely that Bohler-Uddenholm would make a custom run steel just for him. While I know that you can approach Bohler-Uddenholm with specific needs, and that Bohler-Uddenholm can and do make unlisted steels for specific clients, to meet specific needs. Trent could never place an order big enough to justify Bohler-Uddenholm bothering to do so. You would need to be a multi-national doing huge quantities in the 100's of tones to start playing in that pond.

Originally Posted by funkychicken

Hmm.. How 'bout we grab a length and see if it's all that

It can be done, no problem, if enough people are interested it would be a simple process.

Here is a data sheet for S390.

Originally Posted by kman-oz

Thanks for the replies guys.

Does anyone have any H&S Cabinet Chisels?

Dave.

Dave,

I ordered a set yesterday from Trent, delivery due early in the new year.

The New Year! I didn't realise the wait was that long, by then I might have saved the pennies for a set of HSS. That solves that problem, HSS it is.

TS, interesting reading regarding the S390. Seems to be more of a tool makers tool steel with very high compressive strength. I'd be interested to see how well it holds an edge.

Originally Posted by thumbsucker

He may simple be protecting his interests, by not revealing the type of steel he uses. It is highly unlikely that Bohler-Uddenholm would make a custom run steel just for him.

I think it more likely this might have been old stock that happened to suit Trent's needs.

Originally Posted by kman-oz

TS, interesting reading regarding the S390. Seems to be more of a tool makers tool steel with very high compressive strength. I'd be interested to see how well it holds an edge.

My understanding is that because of the powder-metallurgy method used in making S390 will "give a fine microstructure and small, well-distributed carbides in the matrix." which should give it the capacity to take a very nice cutting edge. This is what advocates of O1 always talk about, getting a sharper edge.

However S390 grind ability is much the same as M2 meaning that anyone who can sharpen M2 can sharpen S360.

The other steel of interest is S700, I think its a variant of M2 with even better abrasion resistance then M2 or S390, it however seems more prone to chipping.

Well done Kev. I hope you enjoy them
I too ordered a set and can't wait to get my hands on them.
Dave, I think you can'tgo wrong with the HSS tools.
Great to see you yesterday.
Kevin