Thread: Harold & Saxon Chisels

Hi Folks,
Have you noticed that some lovely sets of H&S chisels have been going up on the HNT Gordon website and selling very fast? Similar things happening on sites in the USA that are agents for HNT GORDON. I'm hopping that Trent is getting things done and will start to ramp up slowly over time.
I caught up with him briefly a few weeks ago and it was lovely to have a good little chat.
I'm pretty sure you'll see many more pre made sets over the next few years, I'm not sure if he'll be doing many custom orders for individuals any time soon but who knows.
All I can say is I love the tools he makes and feel blessed to have quality, beautiful, tools by him that get a fair bit of use. I have way too many...
If you ever get the chance to buy some...just do it. You will be impressed.
I am still waiting on some more that were purchased a long time ago...

Is this the same Trent Powrie that took my payment in full and did a runner with my money!

I ordered 3 sets of chisels on 20/02/2010.
I have received 1 set of these chisels.
I have been trying to get the other 2 sets for 13 years! ($1590)

Trent has been paid in full.
I repeat, Trent has been paid in full!

When can I expect delivery of my 2 sets of chisels or refund of $1590?

Buyer Beware!

Viewing this from halfway around the world, and having gone through depression in the past, I can sort of see both sides of this.

However, people still not square is people still not square and it would seem that if items being sold off the rack were being sold, some share of the work should also be squaring up the rest.

And custom orders ....would seem to be a bad idea. The whole custom order thing is a torture device for even the most clear headed of makers. it's a time soak with customer relations and two anvils hanging from your shoulders everywhere you walk.

Know the feeling. I got about 50% back though.

The order isnt under my name but i was "given" a chisel set of his for last xmas 2022 but still haven't received it. Does anyone know if he works with/co-located/absorbed into HNT gordon? my assumption is that the chisels made available and then promptly sold through HNT are stock H&S had on hand as my order seems to be a custom set so its taking very long time.

Not sure but we've declined a refund, i realllyyy would love to see the chisels first hand enjoy them for a long time and maybe one day pass them down to my kids if i dont take them to my grave eventually

Cheers,
Nathan

I ordered a set and paid a deposit about 4 years ago. I was told 3 months lead time. I believe I was patent but after 2 years and 5 emails with no response I have requested a refund again no response.


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Hate to say this, but I suspect that any monies paid in respect of orders placed years ago have long since been used up, and nothing delivered. Since Terry is handling the products on his webpage, and is probably more familiar with Trent's situation, it might be worth asking him what the story is? Maybe he is just selling old stock of standard H&S products to raise some $$$ for Trent and help him get back on his feet? Several people waiting on orders from years ago have not been able to establish contact with Trent directly. Hope this all works out for you in the end; the product is worth waiting for, but not much point if they turn up after you're dead and gone !

It would be a good idea for someone here with paid-for set(s) oustanding - I was promised a couple all those years back, but they were with a review in mind, so I can let it go - to contact Terry and get the story. For this thread to continue like this is going to irrevocably further damage Trent's reputation. He is clearly a superior craftsman, but is he a lousy businessman or just indisposed all these years by mental health issues? If the latter, which I suspect, I would say that he has suffered enough, and time to treat the affair as if it was a bankruptcy - there will not be a positive outcome. If he has resumed trading, that is another matter. Terry should know.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I see these things (the chisels) are being retailed in the US.

They're jewelry at the cost - $1200 US here. Why? Nothing about their spec is similar to what makes a good chisel on basic principles, though what's gained when they're done may still be fine, they'll be outperformed by some less costly chisels.

The write up for here boasts that they start as M2 round bar, are then milled, heat treated and then tempered back to 60-62. the range of hardness is pretty high - enough so that 62 is the minimum of what you'd want, and 60 would put them at a disadvantage as a chisel.

The write up also talks about retaining wear resistance, which is not of any value in a chisel. So, could've chosen worse - M2 is one of the more plain of the ingot steels, and something with an enormous volume of vanadium would be worse, but M2 surprises (in a chisel) when it's unexpectedly hard. Not when it's not.

They are very nicely finished, but I don't get it. and I guess I'm standing from a pulpit having made a couple of hundred chisels now. The gift of chisels is they prefer a plain steel, which can be forged, and which cuts cost a little if done well.

It's a shame in general that across the board, the market of tools has gone to either japanese or skill is lost in making and we just get cut and heat treat. If I ever lose my day job, that will change.

I say this with a background of applied mathematics - I'm not immune from shots of "white collar guy tries to do the job of blue collar skilled worker", but the chisels and their specs look like they're designed by a mechanical engineer. The write up here confirms some kind of engineering background.

It's too bad. We get a lot of expensive sort of OK chisels (LN, LV, these) and someone could profitably make a better chisel for the same price or less by learning skill instead of spec. If I lose my day job, that'll change.

I'm kind of appalled at the reference to machined and computer heat treated and such things as "the only truly hand made" tools. Hand made is attainable to all of us - I can make a better chisel than these or LN or LV and I'm only opening my yap talking about it because I'm not doing it right now. If I were selling chisels, I'd remain quiet. Anyone here can do the same thing I'm doing - it's not difficult, and it's been a pity that skilled work stopped and when the demand for tools picked back up, we're left with skilled machines that make tools cost more than skilled work ever did. And they're not as good.

I thought it was a bit odd to see these retailed in the US, but it looks like the seller is someone who is distributing HNT Gordon tools here.

Perhaps the cost here is higher than the cost there, just like the reverse is true when it comes to anything made here and sold there.

David

In Australia H & S chisels have generally been acknowledged as the best Western chisels you can buy. I don't know anything about any marketing hype or the specifications as until this point nothing has ever been spoken of. Are they worth the prices being asked? I don't know. Any price is down to what the market will stand. They are certainly more expensive now than they have ever been in the past and they were always at the top of the high end.

An analogy is theatre ticket prices. You can watch from the furthermost seats way up with the Gods or you can purchase front row in the stalls at ten times the cost. Are they worth it? It is up to the individual.

Back on the chisels, they are superbly made, extremely well finished and perform amazingly. Frankly, amongst anybody who has tried them, this has never been in contention. The controversy has always been around the supply and delivery times, which have been poor on good days and diabolical on bad days.

I have to say I have met Trent on several occasions and seen his workshop (not seen him for a few years now). It is not a high powered setup, but he does beautiful work. He has also had major health issues. I am not making excuses: Just presenting some information. I feel for those people who have outstanding orders both because they are missing out on one of woodworking's treats and because they are out of pocket. I would suggest that anything purchased through HNT Gordon will not have delivery issues. I also note that there is no chisel availability through the HNT Gordon website at the moment.

Regards
Paul

Paul, thank you for the level headed response to my grouchy morning post.

I guess I was reflecting on what I've learned so far, and these are just the chisels du jour that came up. I understand the back story here with lack of delivery but I'm carving that off to the side and not holding that against the maker. Why? I get the sense that he was dealing with major depressive disorder based on the bits and pieces i've read - whatever the case may have been if it was anything like that, a custom list when trying to just get out of bed is a bad combination.

My thoughts were really more along the lines of at one point, there was a trade making superior chisels. the cost and demand didn't line up over time, so it disappeared in favor of making chisels in a way that's similar to making cheap penknife blades. chisels returned, but they returned to a method of production that's more costly and doesn't make a better product. performance is reasoned and as long as actual is somewhere in the same zip code, all is well.

But we hear things like "finer grained" or in the case of these chisels "last 5-10 times as long as tool and carbon steel", the assertion is just false, but the maker may not have enough experience with good plain steel chisels to know it. The best example of quality plain steel would be better japanese chisels, but the same performance can be had in a hand heat treated western chisel.

to make and market hand forged chisels wouldn't be that difficult - someone would just have to know how to do it. if i could find 26c3 steel in round bar, I would probably already be doing it, but day job, kids and an ill mother - maybe sometime in the future. I mourn the loss of the skill set because the best chisels I've used for woodworking are those made more than 100 years ago.

It's not a case of bad intentions - i don't think people who have gone into the "modern way" have bad intentions, just a limited set of options.

And all of that aside, if someone wants any chisel at any price, and the price is at or lower than what they'll pay - by all means, we all should buy what we want.

(on the bright side, the sharpening advice that's listed in the ad copy is about as sound as you'll find on any chisel retailed. it is almost exactly what I would do sans buffer, and I later found out from the holtzappfel text that they recommend the same. that is, shallow angle and then I've already forgotten the ad copy, but it says 32-34 degrees or something. Holtzapffel recommends 25 grind and 30 microbevel for softwoods, 35 minutely small finish bevel for hardwoods.

People may think that's idiotic - 35 - but a guy getting paid back then sand a belt grinder to correct damage would've been really intolerant of damage.

Nicholson's advice is very similar, but with no numbers. Shallow hollow grind, but lift "nearer to vertical" with subsequent honing steps, as in steeper angle.

While I've gone idealistic waxing about what could be with chisels, it's important to note that when you're making chisels, it's about the chisel. if you're a skilled worker, you can work the hardest woods with an average chisel and not deal with edge damage. so, even if this was a $25 decent imported chisel, the actual results in use would be about the same. It's only when one sets "all of my chisels at 32 degrees for all woods" that they become the source of the problem, and then blame it on the chisels because one tolerates it and the next doesn't.

Nonetheless, I was pleased to see sharpening advice that intentional or not, has merit going way back. For the chisel maker and retailer, it should also help prevent the newbie who buys an expensive chisel and thinks no matter what they do with said chisel, it'll hold up well.