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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Stewie

    I did exactly the same!



    Regards
    Paul
    Here too. I’m now that glad I resisted the impulse to correct IanW. ��

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin62 View Post
    Here too. I’m now that glad I resisted the impulse to correct IanW. ��
    Hey fellas, I'm far from infallible, if you think I've made a boo-boo, I'd rather you spoke up, it wouldn't be my first mistake!

    In this case, we are all correct - if you view the diagram one way, it is wrong, if you view it the way I meant (but failed to specify), it's right....

    Cheers,
    IW

  4. #18
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    So I'm going to ask an even more basic question - what file are you using for sharpening the 4tpi? I've got the biggest Bahco triangular file my local Total Tools carries - but when used to sharpen, more than half of the face is contacting the tooth. Does this matter? I seem to remember reading or watching something that gave a rule of thumb that the file should be twice as high as the tooth so when the file is rotated it cuts evenly instead of being more worn in some areas. Hopefully that makes sense, I might have to take a photo if it doesn't.

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkahestic View Post
    ......I've got the biggest Bahco triangular file my local Total Tools carries - but when used to sharpen, more than half of the face is contacting the tooth. Does this matter? I seem to remember reading or watching something that gave a rule of thumb that the file should be twice as high as the tooth so when the file is rotated it cuts evenly instead of being more worn in some areas. Hopefully that makes sense, I might have to take a photo if it doesn't.
    That is what is very commonly recommended, and it seems an entirely indisputable bit of theory. However, the practical reality is that the middle areas of the faces are the least of your worries when sharpening saws, the corners always die looong before the faces. So much so that I always keep a few spent saw files on hand to re-purpose for plane making. I grind off the damaged edges of one face to make a file that can reach into the corners of the dovetail sockets, which ordinary triangular files won't do because the corners are rounded. They cut almost as well as a new file & last for ages in that role.

    I suggest that the more important dimension to worry about with saw files is the corner radius, which reduces with degree of 'slimness', i.e. a double-extra-slim file has much sharper corners than a standard or slim file of the same length . A too-fat radius gives you shallow gullets and under-nourished teeth. This is much more noticeable for small teeth. By the time you get to 4tpi it's a bit less important, the teeth will still be high wide & handsome even if the gullets are a bit more rounded & shallow if you use a file that is a degree or two of 'slimness' less than ideal. The tables of file sizes given for various tpis were once pretty reliable guides, but over the last 25-30 years, with major manufacturers dropping out or shifting production to places where quality control isn't as diligent, corner radii seem to be all over he place. I find the same nominal size of file, same brand, can vary between batches and different makes are all over he shop.

    If you use a file that has slightly greater corner radii than the file that was used last time, it's of little consequence, the file will sit firmly in the gullet, contacting both sides evenly. This makes it easy to maintain rake angles. But if the file is 'sharper' than the previous file, the corner meets the bottom of the gullet before the sides, and the file can be rotated a few degrees either way. In this situation, it's all too easy to file one tooth more than the other, you need to be very careful to hold the file at the correct angle until the corner of the file cuts the bottom of the gullet out and the file makes full contact on both sides. It usually takes only half of the first stroke to 'seat' the file in the gullet, but it's amazing how much you can alter rake in that first stroke if you aren't careful.

    I didn't fully appreciate this when I began filing saws in earnest, and several times ended up with saws with unintentionally altered rake angles. It took a while before the penny dropped. I sharpen a few saws for other people, and have learned to check carefully as to what size file will fit he existing gullets, partly because many amateur sharpeners don't know or care about such fine points, and partly because they may have used the "correct" nominal size & 'slimness' of file, but from a different manufacturer or batch from my files. A really skilled saw sharpener can probably cope and just go ahead with the 'correct' file maintaining or correcting rake angles as they go, but for the semi-skilled like myself, it's better to play safe & use a guide on the file to maintain angles if there is any problem with the existing teeth or serious mis-match with the file. That can be as simple as a small stick, Rake stick.jpg

    - or you could spend a day making this

    - or spend money on the Veritas guide, which is a neat little gadget, which does exactly the same job as a stick, but is slightly more convenient, adjustable for different rake angles, and also has a guide for fleam angles. A stick costs you nothing & takes all of a minute to prepare. My preferred guide for fleam angles is a series of lines at 15* to left & right along the top of the saw vise. I can judge more or less of an angle as required from these lines...

    Cheers,
    IW

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post

    - or spend money on the Veritas guide, which is a neat little gadget, which does exactly the same job as a stick, but is slightly more convenient, adjustable for different rake angles, and also has a guide for fleam angles. A stick costs you nothing & takes all of a minute to prepare.
    I use the Veritas guide, but you do have to ensure the adjustments are tight. I did try to purchase one of these from Blackburn Tools

    Blackburntools rakemaker 2.jpg

    Blackburn Tools - The RakeMaker II

    However, my requests were ignored several times and it appears that production of the tool has now been suspended, temporarily, for about the last five years. There was also some comment that Issac Smith had health issues.

    This prompted me to pursue this:

    Henry briggs file guide diagram[38727].PNG

    Of course it predated the Veritas and Blackburn offerings by about a hundred years (click on the pic to see it more clearly). I have lost the exact detailof the dates and as it was it took me a good half hour to find where I had hidden this single picture. How hard can it be to find a file of a file?



    I had planned to make one of these, but it is still in the "gunna one day" basket.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    I use the Veritas guide, but you do have to ensure the adjustments are tight.....
    Paul, I have one too, I was asked to review it for AWR some years ago, and they didn't want it back (about the only advantage of folks thinking you know more about a subject than you do!). Yairs, you do have to make sure you've tightened both the grub screw that holds the file & the thumb screw that locks the rake angle in. I haven't had it let go as long as I attend to them properly, but I have had it come loose several times when I forgot to tighten one or the other in my haste to get on with he job. As I said, it's a handy little gadget, but I would recommend beginners go with the $0 option (a stick) and spend their precious tool dollars on more 'essential' stuff (like more saws ). You can always lash out on the guide later, when finances are more robust if you really think it will improve your sharpening technique. It does have brass thumbscrews, so it will impress your shed visitors much more than a plain old stick.

    I remember that patent, was it with you or someone else I had a bit of a conversation about the possibility of rolling your own? I've occasionally thought about making one too, just for the fun of it. The essential gubbins would be easy enough, but I have nfi how to broach a triangular hole for the files to sit in. Engraving some sort of accurate scale that was fine enough to be useful would be a challenge too, I don't have an indexing head on my toy metal lathe, & the one on my wood lathe jumps up in much larger increments than a degree!

    My only real beef with the Veritas is the thumb/forefinger grip for the left hand is rather small & doesn't give me a lot of spatial feedback, so I have to constantly keep one eye on the damned thing to make sure I'm holding it level. If I use a stick about 50mm long, I seem to get better feedback & can keep it level more easily. When sharpening rip teeth, it really matters that you stay consistent & within a degree or two of your nominal rake angle. As I'm sure you've discovered for yourself, a few degrees difference in rake angle makes a big difference to ripsaw performance (but you have to change it quite a lot on a crosscut to make a discernible difference)....

    Cheers,
    IW

  8. #22
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    IanW - thanks (as always) for your in depth explanation. I'll save myself the hassle of looking for a bigger file!

  9. #23
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    Some WD40 works for me when my saw gets stuck.

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post

    I remember that patent, was it with you or someone else I had a bit of a conversation about the possibility of rolling your own? I've occasionally thought about making one too, just for the fun of it. The essential gubbins would be easy enough, but I have nfi how to broach a triangular hole for the files to sit in. Engraving some sort of accurate scale that was fine enough to be useful would be a challenge too,
    Ian

    I don't recall a conversation, but equally I am having a little difficulty recalling the events of last week so it may have been me.

    I think the triangular hole may be the least of our worries. I think the way to go would be to drill a hole that just touches the sides of the equilateral triangle that forms the tang hole and then with a small triangular file gently ease out the triangular shape. The tapered nature of our files and a good selection of sizes will assist this task with the last file being the size of the finished triangular hole. Brass will make this job easier too. I am not a gambling type of person (don't even bet on the Melbourne cup), but I would put money (not body parts mind you) on you, with your lengthy filing experience, being able to do this in half an hour with about fifteen minutes to spare.



    It's all the other bits that concern me more.



    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    Paul, I have one too, I was asked to review it for AWR some years ago, and they didn't want it back (about the only advantage of folks thinking you know more about a subject than you do!). Yairs, you do have to make sure you've tightened both the grub screw that holds the file & the thumb screw that locks the rake angle in. I haven't had it let go as long as I attend to them properly, but I have had it come loose several times when I forgot to tighten one or the other in my haste to get on with he job. As I said, it's a handy little gadget, but I would recommend beginners go with the $0 option (a stick) and spend their precious tool dollars on more 'essential' stuff (like more saws ). You can always lash out on the guide later, when finances are more robust if you really think it will improve your sharpening technique. It does have brass thumbscrews, so it will impress your shed visitors much more than a plain old stick.

    I remember that patent, was it with you or someone else I had a bit of a conversation about the possibility of rolling your own? I've occasionally thought about making one too, just for the fun of it. The essential gubbins would be easy enough, but I have nfi how to broach a triangular hole for the files to sit in. Engraving some sort of accurate scale that was fine enough to be useful would be a challenge too, I don't have an indexing head on my toy metal lathe, & the one on my wood lathe jumps up in much larger increments than a degree!

    My only real beef with the Veritas is the thumb/forefinger grip for the left hand is rather small & doesn't give me a lot of spatial feedback, so I have to constantly keep one eye on the damned thing to make sure I'm holding it level. If I use a stick about 50mm long, I seem to get better feedback & can keep it level more easily. When sharpening rip teeth, it really matters that you stay consistent & within a degree or two of your nominal rake angle. As I'm sure you've discovered for yourself, a few degrees difference in rake angle makes a big difference to ripsaw performance (but you have to change it quite a lot on a crosscut to make a discernible difference)....

    Cheers,
    Just jumping in hear,
    Could a three sided equilateral triangle hole be made in three parts then riveted together.
    Ie make three equal flat pieces then join them to make a triangle.
    Or make one piece with all the relevant angles then cut in too three pieces.
    Easy pieces[emoji6]


    Disclaimer I’ve never done this.

    Cheers Matt.

  12. #26
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    Struth Matt, you sometimes choose the roundabout road! I'm sure you could make up something from 3 pieces, but working out how to centre it afterwards would fill a few sleepless nights for me.

    I think Paul's suggestion of drilling out as much as possible of the waste then filing the triangular hole, would be the best alternative for someone with limited gear, but I'm not so sure I could do it in 15 minutes!

    Cheers,
    IW

  13. #27
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    When working as a carpenter on site, we all had a tobacco tin filled with narrow strip of tightly coiled blanket wound up in the tin. It was then saturated with a mix of 50/50 oil and kerosene. A quick wipe on the sides of the hand saw eased the strain quite a bit. The tin was often carried in the nail bag and was used often framing with unseasoned hardwood. This was long before there was power on site, when none of our tools had a lead or trigger.

    Another thing we did was to fill a pepper container with mutton fat. The fat was scooped up off the water after boiling the mutton scraps. The container was actually made of card board and slowly wore away with use. The lid was a pressed tin lid that still fitted as the container wore out. Mutton fat was rubbed on the handtools in to prevent rusting during holiday breaks.

    Jim
    Sometimes in the daily challenges that life gives us, we miss what is really important...

  14. #28
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    I tracked down the Henry Briggs patent. Chasing patents is not a forte of mine. I'm too impatent .

    It was dated Feb 14th 1922.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

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