Thread: HELP - Hand Plane woes

Joe, getting a really good fit of cap-iron to blade can be quite difficult at times - the two surfaces have to mate so there are absolutely no gaps. The best way I know to refine the edge of the cap-iron is with a good medium or medium-fine diamond plate. Work the CI side to side, concentrating on maintaining a constant angle & working a small flat just behind the leading edge. The idea is to slope the flat away from the edge to form a small wedge-shaped clearance gap, as shown:
Cap-iron gap.jpg

The diagram is exaggerated for clarity, the gap just needs to be enough to ensure the leading edge of the cap-iron remains in contact with the blade when lever-cap pressure is applied. Old cap-irons that have had a rough life & been 'got at' by folks with files & more enthusiasm than care can have no 'clearance', or slightly rounded leading edges so that when pressure is applied to the CI it rolls the edge up ever so slightly, making an entry point for splinters. It's quite amazing to me how little it takes to invite shavings to force their way under a close-set cap-iron.

Whenever I make a cap-iron for a new plane, I find getting the fit spot-on is always a bit of a chore. It's really hard (for me) to get the leading edge dead straight & the flat behind the edge dead flat. I rough-out the broad shapes with files, but always need the diamond plate to get the surfaces properly trued for the final fit...
Cheers,

Thanks Ian - that's really insightful... yes I must say i was trying too many things, and probably didn't do any of them particularly well. I'm going to focus on the Cap Iron and see if I can get it nice and flat...

Thanks again

Originally Posted by Joe Gadget

Thanks everyone.
I played with flattening the chip breaker and it seems to have fixed the problem to some extent. I'm getting shavings now but they are raggeed. I think I still need to make sure it's flat as can be without a curled over edge... but I'm on the right track.
Once I'm happy that it's as flat as I can make it, i will have to go back and adjust everything else one by one (blade edge, frog setting etc)....

I'll try and post some pics....

Joe, if your shavings are "ragged" it indicates that the blade is not cutting evenly. This is likely to be either an uneven wood surface or a blade that is not sharp enough.

The reason why it is less likely to be the chipbreaker is because you mentioned at the start that you tried planing with it close and at a distance. A too-close chipbreaker will create dust, but it will not cause curls, which you reported, unless it was concertina-like curls. I think you should pull the blade back and test to see how sharp it is.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek... concertina is actually a very good way of describing the curls...

But i agree that i need to revisit the sharpness of the blade. unfortunately i'm not good enough to sharpen by hand and am using a guide. i get a bevel that's not even across the width of the blade (ie larger at one end).

i will go back to basics and try flattening the chip breaker and honing the blade.....

I have to say, setting this plane up has been a real pain in the bum....

Originally Posted by Joe Gadget

[I] am using a [sharpening] guide. i get a bevel that's not even across the width of the blade (ie larger at one end).

i will go back to basics and try flattening the chip breaker and honing the blade.....

I have to say, setting this plane up has been a real pain in the bum....

first off there is no shame at all in using a sharpening guide. Many people do.

Evenness of the secondary bevel is, IMO, mostly a non-issue as the lateral adjuster can readily be used to compensate.
in your thread about the micro bevel not being even Derek (and DW(?)) suggested slight changes to your sharpening technique


and as to setting up the #4 being a right pain ...
STOP thinking like that.
The process you are going through is learning some of the tweaks required to get an older plane working like it should. Depending on the #4's providence, some of these tweaks may never have been performed before so in effect you are bringing the #4 to full operating potential.
In no particular order ...

• the plane's sole needs to be flat
• the frog well bedded
• the blade bedding face of the frog needs to be uniform
• the back of the blade flattened -- it doesn't need to be mirror polished on 30,000 or higher grit, but it does need to be flat
• the bottom edge of the chip breaker also needs to be flat, with some relief angle -- IanW (above) provided a diagram -- what you need to achieve is an extremely tight tolerance between the back of the blade and the leading edge of the chip breaker
• the lower curved face of the chip breaker (cap iron) needs to have a smooth surface that will deflect the chip at a high enough angle to "break" the chip so it forms a curl
• and I'm sure I've left out one or two "tips"

Originally Posted by Joe Gadget

Thanks for the advise everyone.
Thanks to both Ian's for some great advise... lots to consider..
I used a 25 degree angle for the main bevel and a midge more for the secondary...

I did use the new blade before sharpening it, just to see..

i'll try some of the suggestions and get some photos uploaded if i can't figure it out.

Thanks again

keep the bevel at 25. set the secondary angle at 33 and make it small. See what happens (Good things will happen). 32/33 is about the angle on a bevel down plane where small chipping stops.

Tighten all of the screws on the plane (not absurdly tight, just make sure none are loose) and then plane something relatively narrow (and make sure that what you're planing isn't hollow in its length or you may be torturing yourself needlessly).

Originally Posted by Joe Gadget

Hi Derek... concertina is actually a very good way of describing the curls...

But i agree that i need to revisit the sharpness of the blade. unfortunately i'm not good enough to sharpen by hand and am using a guide.

I started with a guide. When I test irons and collect data, I still use a guide (so that critics can reproduce my results - they never do, but they could). You have to get results first and then get them with another method later if you don't want to use a guide.

I started with David Charlesworth's video and followed the steps and the very first edge I ever got was sharp - and after that, I thought that everyone telling me that I wouldn't know what sharp was was right and there was some kind of mystery to get it.

Here's the mystery - you need to grind material and get it out of the way at the edge and not have damage on the back or deep scratches. After that, you have to put very fine scratches on both, and a guide and a microbevel is ideal. If it's hard to get the scratches off of the back, use a faster stone before the finish stone for about 10 seconds and put your fingers where you want the stone to do the work. Wherever you put your fingers, the plane blade will flex and you will notice that the cutting is done there, even if it seems like the iron is flat. I refer to this is directed pressure - because I don't know what the real term for it would be. Direct your pressure where you want the work to occur.

If I took a picture of every plane iron I ever received with a tool that I offered to refit, there would be zero that had only fine scratches at the edge. I'd bet derek would pass the test, and some other workers who do fine work (Carvers especially) would pass the test, but they can get weird with plane irons thinking things about carving tools on plane irons.

In short, use the honing guide, separate the grinding angle from final honing and don't be afraid to spend $15 on a hand held view scope on ebay so you can view the edge at magnification.

Thank you so much everyone....

I know what i'm going to be doing this weekend.... you've given me so much vital information.. I will definitely send some pics of super smooth curls when I'm finished....

D.W's post suggesting you buy a view scope, is a good one. When I got into to sharpening knives I bought a little usb microscope (they are quite cheap) which allows you to see the 'edge' on your computer screen. It was quite amazing to see all the serrations and scratches. A jewellers loupe is also useful. They both can be bought on eBay.

Once you get the hang of it you probably won't use them again - but I found them very useful to begin with.

Good luck with it!

I had the same problem with powdery sawdust as Joe Gadget. I knew it wasn't the blade as I know how to use a sharpening stone but I had no idea about the cap iron. Sure enough I could see light from between them. So I set to flattening and got a good result. You guys are awesome. I learn so much on these forums. Thank you all.

20211007_133715.jpg

Originally Posted by Joe Gadget

Thank you Cgcc
Yes it has been doing my head in... I haven't had the time to fix the chip breaker yet (was playing with my thicknesser yesterday), but when I do I'll hopefully post some photos of clean shavings.... lol

Where abouts are you? I am Canberra-based and would be happy to take a look, if you are in Canberra. If not Canberra, maybe there's another Woody local to you who can take a look for you and show you how to fix it.

Craig

Joe, PM me your phone number and we can organise a get together to see what the problem is.

Hi Everyone....

I finally worked out what it was....
I made sure the blade was ultra sharp and the frog seated properly (as everyone suggested)
No improvement... so i worked on the chip breaker....
and it was the chip breaker after all.... but that's not all....
The chip breaker turned out to be such a bugga to flatten. i had missed the step where i needed to remove the round over on the front edge. So - many many many attempts later I got the chip breaker to be flat on the top AND the bottom.... beautiful...
So i put it together with the blade....
And it was a bit "iffy"... better than before but.....
so the I realised i had it way too close to the edge of the blade..... so i moved it back - just to see - and wouldn't you know it....... curly curls.....
20211023_101904.jpg
... well the picture isn't the best example (obviously lots more work to do), but I got the monkey off my back...

so to recap - the chip breaker is now flat, and I know not to have it too too close to the blade edge..

Thank you all so much for your help... my partner got a fright when i ran through the house whooping with delight ....