Thread: Help to identify this plane.

Hi,

I meant to say a low angle plane
not a smoothing plane.


Martin.

Gee Martin - you don't make it easy for us - is that glass panel a fixture, & if so, what would you do in the event of fire?! (Break the glass, of course... ).

OK, from what I can see & guess from your pics you have a low-angle plane with a blade set at somewhere in the vicinity of 20 deg (18* seems to have been a common choice of British planemakers for this style of plane), so of course the blade will have to be bevel-up and the sole will have been made in two pieces unless the mouth is exceedingly large. The side profile is not typical of any of the better-known British infill-makers, and that handle/wedge combination is unique in my experience.

Given that unusual side profile and the slightly crude (but workman-like) carving of the tote/wedge, my suggestion is it's a user-made plane. Of course the original handle/wedge may have been broken & this is a replacement, or simply a whim of the owner who decided he wanted something out of the ordinary, so it doesn't preclude manufacture by a known maker. The handle is rather exposed sitting up there like that, & could suffer badly in a fall, so I'll have a very small bet each way & allow it could be a factory-made job, and perhaps Continental in that case.

As to its function, I'd say it was intended to be used wherever a box mitre was used, it's essentially the same tool but with separate rather than continuous sides. Exactly where & how box mitres were deployed in the past has been shrouded by the mists of time. I have never read anything I'd consider reliable on why box mitres were popular for about 200 years then virtually died out. That period (from about the end of the 17thC to the end of the 19th), spans the period of the most intense hand-making of elaborate furniture & house fittings, but doesn't explain how they were used. A low-angle/BU configuration in a heavy plane is good for shooting end-grain, for sure, & that may have been their main use. In the only old reference I've seen with one being used seriously, the bloke was trimming a large mitre using a mitring vise. I've seen Bill Carter demonstrating his own & old mitre planes that he has restored, but I've only ever seen him planing long-grain with one, which is not something a low-angle plane with a blade ground to a 'normal' bevel angle excels at, it's too liable to tear out with a heavy cut on cranky woods. In the 'golden' age of hand-made furniture, Mahogany was the favoured wood & since it frequently has "rowed" grain, I would think the craftsmen of the day would have much preferredr their double-iron bevel-down planes for planing along the grain.

So there's my 2c worth...
Cheers,
Ian

Fascinating question, Martin and Ian; I know nothing, but am intrigued.

Martin; could we please have some more input from you

• better photos, no glass screen, side view, front and rear quarter view, sole view, overhead view,
• close ups of any identifying marks on plane or its iron, and
• accurate measurements (not "about 70-75 mm").

I did some basic googling and there was a company called Samuel Tyzack and Sons, and this might be relevant.

The Tyzacks were saw makers in Sheffield for at least 3 generations until 30 year old Henry moved to Shoreditch near London in 1839 and started his own business, which he transferred to his son Samuel in 1861. Tyzacks seemed to have retailed quality tools made by other firms and also to have made tools themselves. Handplane Central has a copy of their 1908 catalogue, and they were still issuing catalogues as recently as 1957:

• www.handplane.com/64/tyzack-and-son-1908-catalog/
  
• trowelcollector.blogspot.com/2014/12/s-tyzack-1957-catalogue-now-available.html

One unproven hypothesis - the plane was made by or retailed by the Tyzack company, or maybe its a one-off with a Tyzack blade????

Tyzack Calliper

Tyzack Dovetail Saw.jpg Tyzack Dovetail Saw

Hi,
Took the glass out today for some pictures.
The plane is 8 1/4" long,
It is 2 3/8 wide,
The mouth is 2 1/4 wide,
The Blade iron is 2 1/16 wide.
There are no markings apart from the owners mark
which is W Luce. The was another owners name ,but
W Luce was also stamped overthe other name.
The Iron is by W J Tyzack of 345 old street.
I cannot find out much about J W Tyzack
.IMG_20211111_101735.jpgIMG_20211111_101811.jpgIMG_20211111_101450 (1).jpgIMG_20211111_101659.jpgIMG_20211111_101620.jpgIMG_20211111_101450 (1).jpg The handle has been broken before and screwed back
together with two screws, one in the handle and one in small piece . I think the handle and wedge were made all in one. Glass is back in again so that s all folks

Martin.

Might be worthwhile googling TATHS.
Group in UK into old tools in a serious way.
H.

Martin, thanks for going to all that trouble - I suspected the glass was a fixture!

It's a really interesting piece of work, and now we've had a better look, I'll up the odds a bit on it being owner-made. Suspicion falls heavily on Chas Durrell, who's name hasn't been obliterated on the blade bed, & was presumably the original proud owner of the plane. Maybe you have a group, or some individuals there who are into local history & might be able to find out who he was & what his occupation was, but I reckon he's your man.

It looks to me like the body was cast as a single piece, bridge included, it's not fabricated, there is absolutely no hint of a join at the corners, something that is virtually impossible to achieve by dovetailing two bits together. (The bridge appears to be an integral part of the casting & you'd either need to use the lost-wax method to do that, or make a rather complex pattern, but Henry can put us straight on that point...)

The steel insert at the mouth is another indication the body was cast. The sole of a fabricated low-angle plane is usually made in two pieces & joined so that the joint is very hard to see without a close inspection. On a cast body you need a big gap to get files in to refine the back of the mouth for a low-angle bed. The gap is then filled-in to create a fine mouth. On your plane the maker chose to fit the piece as a sliding dovetail - I've not seen that before, but it's probably not unique.

For my money, the combination of unusual features, not the least being that whimsical handle-wedge, all point to owner-made. I think the best way to gain more insight into its origins would be to find out more about this Mr. Durrell.......

Cheers,
Ian

Thanks for the photographs, Martin.

In 1860 sawmaker/tool retailer Samuel Tyzack leased premises at 8 Old Street, Shoreditch. On 6-1-1871 the street was renumbered and his premises became No 345 Old Street, Shoreditch. The business remained on that site until ~1987 when it moved to 329 Old Street.

www.tyzack.net/hackney.htm

Thus we can date your plane iron as having been made after 1871.

I had to enlarge your photo of the plane iron to see the "J W" part of the J W Tyzack logo. But Henry Tyzack who moved from Sheffield to Shoreditch in 1840 had an Uncle William and a brother Joseph. Joseph and William may have been family names, but I, also, have not been able to find any reference to a "J W Tyzack".

Tyzack - JW Logo on Plane Iron.jpg


Similarly, I could find nothing on a Chas Durell as a plane maker, tool maker or woodworker.

Because of the eccentric design I agree with Ian's view that this is likely to be an owner-made plane rather than a production model, and fitted with a Tyzack iron.

All fascinating stuff!

Originally Posted by IanW

As to its [the plane's] function, I'd say it was intended to be used wherever a box mitre was used, it's essentially the same tool but with separate rather than continuous sides. Exactly where & how box mitres were deployed in the past has been shrouded by the mists of time. I have never read anything I'd consider reliable on why box mitres were popular for about 200 years then virtually died out. That period (from about the end of the 17thC to the end of the 19th), spans the period of the most intense hand-making of elaborate furniture & house fittings, but doesn't explain how they were used.

IanW

Joel from Tools for Working wood posted his thoughts on metal mitre planes back in February 2010, see The History of Mitre Planes - The Marquetry Plane - Part 1 -- for the moment I can't find part 2 of Joel's blog post ...
found part 2 The History of Mitre planes - Pt 2 - The early 19th Century Before Infill Bench Planes Were Developed
and part 2-1/2 The History of Mitre planes - Pt 2 1/2 - Details of the Gabriel Mitre Plane C. 1790

If I correctly understand Joel's thoughts, metal mitre planes were primarily used in conjunction with marquetry work, not for shooting 45 degree (or similar) cross grain joints.
Why the planes persisted for around 200 years (from the mid 1600s to the late 1800s) and then disappeared? Perhaps the increasing size of the English middle class was part of the reason. Middle class lawyers, doctors, engineers, etc could afford nice things, but marquetry was beyond their means?

Martin Shephard thinks one of the reasons may have been that even after the English colonies started to provide considerable wealth to England, the market for marquetry was too small to justify marketing the planes.

you may be interested in more of Martin Shephard's thoughts
Early English Mitre Planes, Part I: Christopher Gabriel, John Sym, & c. | Martin Shepherd Piano Service
Early English Mitre Planes, Part II: Moon, Towell, and Smith | Martin Shepherd Piano Service
http://mshepherdpiano.com/antique-pi...anes-part-iii/

Hi Ian, Graeme.

I did notice the name Chas Durell but
forgot to mention it. The name Chas is short for Charles.
I have come across a Charles Durell over in Jersey but he was
a Reverend. I have found a lot of Durell s in New Jersey which
was named after Jersey where I live. It was great to touch the
Planes again. The glass is a pane but no dust and 3 grand children.
Thanks for the in-put and time. Oh one other thing , the blade is set
at 18 degree s . I may have a look at TATHS in the UK.

Martin.

Graeme, thankyou for the links - I have read the Shepherd pages before, & they do contain much info on mitre planes, but not much on what they were used for. But Joel's blog expounding on mitre planes is just the sort of stuff I was hoping to find when I was doing a bit of research on mitre planes about 18 months or so back, but somehow I missed it. I also posed the question here "does anyone know for sure how/why mitre planes were used?" about the same time, but no-one ventured any strong opinions or pointed me at those sources then, so I'm very grateful that you are obviously a bit more competent with literature searches than I am!

What Joel says sounds very plausible, and does match with history fairly well. The time frame when mitre planes began to fall out of favour does match the period when marquetry and other fussy inlay work began to decline. And since I have done very little inlay or marquetry work myself, it does explain whet I've never felt the need for a box mitre plane...
Cheers,

Originally Posted by old workshop

......the blade is set
at 18 degree.....

Martin, 18 deg. is a very common angle for bevel-up British planes (no idea if it was the same on the continent). Why that particular angle was chosen rather than say 15 or 20 I have no idea, so if anyone can enlighten me I'd be grateful.

I got the impression "Durrell" was a fairly common surname in Jersey from elesewhere. I suppose that makes a search for info regarding our particular Chas/Charlie more difficult, but it's the sort of thing history buffs relish. You need to befriend one who is prepared to search old records that might give you a lead on the chap....

Cheers,

Hi Ian,

There are only 4 Durrel s over here in Jersey
and they seem to be the same family.

Martin.

hi IanW
Veritas still make a mitre plane https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop...as-miter-plane
I don't own one and to my recollection I have not used one either.

Veritas describes the plane as "inspired by antique Scottish mitre planes".

Ian, I'm not looking for a mitre plane, thanks..

At one point, as I've said elsewhere, I was thinking seriously about making one. It was mostly for the challenge of doing the continuous sides & having to make the dovetails sort of backwards compared with doing separate sides, & broaching the mounting holes for the bridge before bending the sides (that's the scariest bit, the back bend has to be spot-on, or I'll end up with a very unsightly crooked bridge!).

Since it does involve a goodly degree of uncertainty & a fair amount of work, I thought I should do some research before I launched into it & find out why I actually need a mitre plane. The fact that I had never really felt the need for one during 45 plus years of reasonably serious woodworking, and that they had begun to die out about the time my grandmother was born (1882 - sort of shrinks time when I think that it was the century before last already!), made me suspect that I could probably get through my remaining woodworking years without one, quite happily. Until Graeme directed me to Joel's blog, I couldn't find anything other than the usual throwaway that they were used for shooting mitres. I have long suspected that simply comes from the name, and that the folks who write such stuff have never tried to use one in that context, 'cos while it would do at a pinch, I can think of much more convenient planes to use for shooting than a box mitre!

Using a mitre plane to level marquetry is something I had never considered, but after reading Joel's suggestion, based on some intelligent research & deduction, I am strongly inclined to think he's onto something there. Marquetry is not something that interests me much, so he hasn't provided me with a good reason for making a mitre, which leaves me with nothing but the challenge. It may still happen for that reason & it may not, but one thing is certain, it won't happen for a good while, my order book is chock-full atm (mostly self-orders ), so a mitre plane will have to wait 'til I have nothing better to do........

Cheers,
Ian