Thread: Help needed with a Stiletto

Sorry Paul

I'm not with it tonight leaving out the reference.

I found the pages on Ebay, described as 1917 AD Stiletto Hand Saws Rip Panel Skew Back Straight Back
Seller information: gdawg(11169 )

and hoped that the information might be useful.

It's no matter Ian. You came up trumps and can rest on your laurels!

I looked up that seller, which I have seen before but not paid much in the way of attention, and just searching on his listings for "saw" produced well over 400 results!

What those results showed is that the Pacific Hardware and Steel Company were, and may still be, a force to be reckoned with. They obviously have had a huge range of products. I hope they reply to my email as it could be most informative and potentially may fill in the gaps.

My hesitation is that their contact email had no facility to send them pictures and it may at a glance look too complicated. I live in hope.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by RayG

Nice find Paul, Looks like it will get another hundred years of life.

I'm curious about the pictures of the two new stiletto saws that Ian posted. It says on the etch, Japanese style teeth? I'm pretty sure it's not a pull saw, maybe it's japanese filed backwards?

Ray

Thanks Ray.

Yes, when I was researching before posting the thread I spotted that too and found it most confusing. In fact I don't quite know what to make of it. I didn't pursue it at the time as it was not in my focus.

Regards
Paul

so many old saws (brands etc), its intriguing and interesting to find the stories behind them.

how, who and why did they come up with that name 'stiletto' . my guess is that it came from its origin of meaning in some languages meaning dagger or sharp points. but more specifically it came from a German company that used that exact same logo.

and though the brand name "stiletto' is still used today and is linked to that page ( https://stiletto.com/t-about.aspx ) that says it goes back to 1849 Baker and Hamilton. but even on that page it is missing some large gaps in its own history as far as i can see, certainly to do with its origin of name.

from what i've been able to find , baker & hamilton went to San Fran like many others in the hopes of getting rich the quick way, following everyone else for the gold rush. they didn't succeed in finding gold so opened up a hardware store, selling to the miners became very successful, grew much bigger and also sold farming equipment, purchased from wholesalers nearby and far away. they grew very very big and basically had a modern day equivalent of a bunnings or a department store, perhaps even more so! they sold bicycles, carriages, firearms, huge amount of farming equipment large and small. i would assume they either had children that continued on the business or it was a public shared company. because as far as i can tell one died in 1892 and the other in 1893 (i read their obits in an old news paper). imo they were simply merchants that sold other peoples wares, but were large enough to have things made for them with their name on it (Baker & Hamiton. Later on Baker, Hamiton & Pacific Co). it would appear they had a close relationship (both in business and location) to Pacific Hardware and Tool company, that did use and advertise the saws using the 'stiletto' brand and logo as above (and just about everything else they could stamp it on to. P.H&T using the logo and brand Stiletto are listed in early saw catalogues/advertisements c1907 (that i have seen and others) alongside diston and other brands, with buck saw, crosscut saws etc, look virtually identical to diston saws one might even assume some are the same with just different logo, or tiny differences made after the initial blank.

Pacific Company had their own rolling steel plant but i don't know whether they made their own steel, i don't get that impression they did, or if they did didn't put it to a lot of use. it may be that they purchased steel ingots and reformed to make other things, largey farming equipment is what they were known for apart from being wholesale merchants of a variety of things them selfs , (same as Baker & Hamilton but sold retail). the saw with the older logo certainly might suggest this, as it says english steel, even then it is quite possible someone else made it (say Simonds) and depending on the year either Pacific Co or Baker and Hamilton Pacific put the finishing touches on it, including the Stiletto logo, but quite likely done for them. Pacific company (even prior to merging with B&H) used the stiletto logo so i would say the claims of the stiletto brand going back to 1849 in their company are probably incorrect or misleading as stated on that Stiletto website that sell hammers and pry bars.

Pacific compony used that logo on things they didn't make them selfs, as i have seen a number of things, such as padlocks and safes made by famous big companies in other locations of the US but having the stiletto logo on it, sold from their San Fran wholesale warehouse to others, such as B&H. considering they imported/sourced and sold everything from cutlery to safes with that brand it might be a stretch to say if they made actual saws themselves or if they just made some farming equipment.

afaik Pacific Company first opened in 1903 (one source says P.H. &Co first opened a warehouse in 1903 but another shows it was doing business in 1896-if so it must of been from a small premise) and in 1918 Pacific Company sold off their building, including the rolling steel mill to , Fuller & Co, whom made paint and the property was transformed to make paint, not steel implements. it appears at the same time Pacific Company merged with Baker & Hamilton ,post 1918 up till around the late 1930's (maybe 1942) advertising saws under the name Baker, Hamilton & Pacific Co name using the Stiletto brand and Logo. Baker & Hamilton sold everything imaginable, from homewares to vehicles, but only some things they put Stiletto on, usually things that Pacific had brought with them.

The exact brand name and logo comes from a German maker of cut throat razors Miller, Sloss & Scott (1891-1901). this company (or at least the Stiletto portion of it) was absorbed by Pacific Hardware & Steel about 1901 but afaik the razors were still made in Germany after (?). no doubt this gave the Pacific Hardware company rights to use the Logo and they put it on everything they could as far as can tell.

if you look at the razor end on it certainly resembles a stiletto point.


stiletto_2.jpgstiletto_3.jpgstiletto_5.jpgstiletto_6.jpg

at a stretch i can see how the word Stiletto is apt for a saw (has teeth to a fine point). but how that word relates to hammers is beyond me. then again i always thought Keystone was a strange thing for Disston to use on his saws. to me it relates more to masonry .

cheers
chippy

Chippy

Thanks for your input.

I think the Stiletto brand may have been an early example of "home brand." It was very common for the larger purchasers of hand saws to ask for their own logo to be added to that of the original manufacturer.

Disston had a complete range dedicated to just that. It did not compromise the integrity of their own saws and those large hardware stores (some of them chains) had enough credibility to sell under their own name.

The thing that surprises me now is that with the sheer size of the Pacific Hardware and Steel Co., it does not feature under the hardware stores section in Erv Schaffers "Handsaw Makers of North America", which until now I had regarded as reasonably comprehensive. I have found omissions in the past, but nothing quite as significant as this. That may be a little harsh as I am continually finding new information myself.

Once I had the handle off the saw plate today I gave it a tap and it had a beautiful tone to it. I quickly dug up a Disston no.12 which is awaiting a handle and compared. The Stiletto was superior! This actually surprises me as from the advertisment that Ian found the No.8 was only a mid range saw.

Regards
Paul

Paul,

It's definitely an interesting story which appears to be unfolding here. It's cool to see everyone chipping in on the detective work.

I'm excited to see what it looks like when you've resuscitated it. Given its condition and its resemblance to a No. 12 I expect it will be a beaut.

Cheers,
Luke

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Chippy

Thanks for your input.

I think the Stiletto brand may have been an early example of "home brand." It was very common for the larger purchasers of hand saws to ask for their own logo to be added to that of the original manufacturer.

Disston had a complete range dedicated to just that. It did not compromise the integrity of their own saws and those large hardware stores (some of them chains) had enough credibility to sell under their own name.

The thing that surprises me now is that with the sheer size of the Pacific Hardware and Steel Co., it does not feature under the hardware stores section in Erv Schaffers "Handsaw Makers of North America", which until now I had regarded as reasonably comprehensive. I have found omissions in the past, but nothing quite as significant as this. That may be a little harsh as I am continually finding new information myself.

Once I had the handle off the saw plate today I gave it a tap and it had a beautiful tone to it. I quickly dug up a Disston no.12 which is awaiting a handle and compared. The Stiletto was superior! This actually surprises me as from the advertisment that Ian found the No.8 was only a mid range saw.

Regards
Paul

yeah, a type of home brand was what i was getting at. and indeed the big name saw makers sold them 'rebadged' , like some cars etc are now.

interesting about the comparison you find between the #12 and the old stiletto #8. i guess with just the two to compare there are some cohorts that may effect a definitive answer to whether the stiletto steel/saw is overall generally better than the #12. some tension might be lost on the #12, age, other things etc etc.

i saw those ads posted earlier, on eBay as well (but were put up before i finished writing my post), you might notice the #8 are heavier than the higher models despite being skew backed which is designed to save some weight (amazing they put that detail in actually!). one would expect the gauge on the (disston) #12 if made equal length and tooth as the stiletto #8 to weigh less, so the ring will be different anyway, more baritone on the stiletto than soprano.

it would be interesting to know the date on yours as well. by the looks of things Pacific Hardware altered the Logo, obviously. with the later logo being set inside the double ended arrow, yours is like the original logo taken from the german stiletto company. i haven't nailed it down yet but somewhere between 1912 and 1917 they changed. your number 8 is older than the earlier pictured advert from 1917. yours is more like this one , this picture happens to be from 1908, but how long they kept this same saw with same logo going i don't know, so there is no assurance yours is from 1908 as of yet.

also the older saws (by number) are often ,not always, higher on the totem pole, as the years go by they introduce 'better' models. it might be that your #8 was closer to the top of the range (if in fact it is from ten years earlier) than the 1917 advert shows.

its also interesting in the 1917 advert that they still say the #8 etc are hand filed and such. with simonds , disston etc the lower down the price range usually means less hand work done. its demonstrated clearly in some simonds adverts about how the top most models get more refined work done and hand sharpened whereas the lesser models are machine sharpened. i wonder if the Stiletto advert is accurate in this respect. the higher end models in the 1917 advert weigh less, thereby assuming thinner gauge, more taper and work gone into them perhaps.

with you ring test, it could also just come down to top class english steel was just better than Disstons lol. that would not make some people happy

cheers
chippy

pacific stiletto 1908.jpg

just found a couple more pics that might be interesting, especially the tool box; note the wooden case uses the new logo whereas the saws in particular listed as #S17P. 20 &24 inches panel saws (that wold be found in the earlier post) are illustrated to look like the old etching and logo used.

the catalogue as a whole has many other brands in it, including Stanly bedrock planes and all manner of other stanley tools and makes as well


stilletto planes 1917.jpg stiletto tool kit.jpg stiletto wood planes 1917.jpg


on the strength of those pictures (which is a little thin for sure) if thats a reasonable footing; then my guess might be that Pacific H. & Steel used the original logo up until 1916 (so possibly Paul your saw may be as old as 1916-17)...or there abouts before changing completely, or rather just selling off old stock that may of still had the old logo in 1917 but have made the formal transition to the new Logo already as shown on letter heads and most tools

i've looked at a number of 1917 catalogues (and 1912 but can't find anything after-1912 that definitively show the older logo ), all the letter heads on the pages show the new logo, and most, or rather the great majority of tools seem to have pictured the new stiletto dagger logo within the two ended arrow outline.

however a couple of exceptions on a couple of pages might be of interest. they show the tool with the old logo still. (is it an error with the illustrator, perhaps, or perhaps they are some transitional old stock that is illustrated with the older logo still. which i guess means the logo may have been changed around late 1916 or early 1917

Chippy

You too have come up trumps along with Ian when I just folded!

You an Ian can expect a pedestal in the post anytime soon .

Actually you make a very good point in the case for error. All along the way there is the possibility of mistakes being made. The illustrator worked from samples and the wrong sample may have been picked. So I don't think that possibility should be discounted.

I too have some good news. I have received an email from Josh at Pacific Hardware and he requested that I send him the pictures. It turns out that he collects the vintage Stilletto goods. He said he would see what he could do to identify the saw. I mentioned that where we have drawn a complete blank is the manufacturer of the saw, which we don't believe was Pacific Hardware.

I only sent this about an hour ago so I am looking forward to a reply.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

Paul,

It's definitely an interesting story which appears to be unfolding here. It's cool to see everyone chipping in on the detective work.

I'm excited to see what it looks like when you've resuscitated it. Given its condition and its resemblance to a No. 12 I expect it will be a beaut.

Cheers,
Luke

Yes Luke

It has come together better than I could possibly have imagined. We have in our midst super sleuths!

I am going to do some more work on the handle today and have started sharpening the saw plate. The teeth were really bad and in places had to be jointed down to smooth metal.

Chippy made a good point in relation to the sound the plate makes when struck. Although this one sounds really good, the No.12 to which I compared it may have lost a little tension. I have read that even within the same model number there can big variations in sound and it does not neccessarily mean that one saw is better than another. I think a crisp and resonant tone is a good indicator.

Another revelation for me was from Ian's advertisements, which showed that, in 1917 at least, the No.8 was only a mid range saw. A mid range saw with nickel plated brass hardware (and a WS medallion) I found unusual and surprising. I would be interested to know whether this range of saws was successful.

Regards
Paul

Nice saw and a really interesting read. You guys have put in some e cel lent research.

One thing to keep in mind when trying to date from catalog images is that these images were etchings an cost money to have done so often I have found the product changed but future catalogs still retained out dated images. This is certainly the case with our local McPhersons who seemed to never update their product images.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

One thing to keep in mind when trying to date from catalog images is that these images were etchings an cost money to have done so often I have found the product changed but future catalogs still retained out dated images. This is certainly the case with our local McPhersons who seemed to never update their product images.

That is a very good point. My early working life was in publishing and it was just at the end of the letterpress era, which involved making a steel plate for every picture . It was a costly process so I can quite see where a manufacturer may chose not to update.

Unfortunately that is an aspect we can't really allow for other than acknowledging it as a possibility. Thank you for alerting us.

Something I have found with trying to date saws is that you can really only work to the catalogs and at best that just gives a range of years that a saw might be made. I find myself frequently using the phrase was first seen in **** catalogue but did not appear in ****catalogue. Catalogues, quite understandably, were not produced every year.

Using Simonds for example, because I am most familiar with that manufacturer, during their years of hand saw production they produced catalogs in 1903,1907,1910,1912,1916,1919 and 1923. I think much of that would be to do with the introduction of new models or changes in price structure. After all, if nothing has changed, why go to additional expense. In the case of Simonds (also Disston and Atkins) the catalogues were not just for handsaws, but included a huge range of associated products. We are only considering one aspect of their business


Regards
Paul

I think you can do more than just acknowledge. In so much as you say "first seen in, but did not appear in" in so much as you know that the first seen in is the earliest known date, and any older images of saws superceeded are probably due to lack of updating old plates. But yes it adds little to the quest.

indeed, i had that in the back of my mind but didn't write it. that is, that they are etchings and costly and would be reused in many circumstances. still i found it interesting that in the tool box picture it showed both logo's . which kinda raised the question for me why change one and not the other. possibly just a simple fix to change one part and not the other i guess. so i figured (guessing) that the Logo change must be closer to 1917 than to 1912.

also the stiletto razors i have noticed that some, obviously later made models also have made in the US written on them, while others have made in Germany. both while under the ownership of Pacific Hardware afaik.

I look forward to what the chap from Pacific says about whom made the saws, assuming he knows. the mind boggles if they made them themselves when one considers the huge array of steel products they sold, i think i read somewhere it was either the catalogue pages or items numbered somewhere around 3500 different steel items. its mind boggling the amount of square footage the factories would of had to have been, say when compared to Atkins, Simonds, Disston or even across the water it makes me think to compare it to BSA, that made quite few things but their factory at one point was around 26 acres in later years but still huge in the early years and just made a few things. the bigger US saw makers buildings were quite enormous but they just made saws and associated things and usually had a seperate building/factory just for the timber to make the handles.

i find the price on the tool box intriguing as well (they also sold empty chests very much like the one made popular by swartz when selling his "A" book, his reference then was comparing to the Ben Seaton tool chest, obviously in reality he didn't need to go that far back to find such a chest, just few years and few miles from where he was (they had pretty much same design and some inlay work as well), but that doesn't sell books without the drama. now i believe he is onto dutch type chests as a revelation he has found anew and making a book about that, but again that design was quite common, even here in adelaide not that long ago) .

anyway the Stiletto tool chest pictured with some 90 tools sold with it. i love the picture/etching, the tools are just casually placed around, one can hardly imagine how the door closes or how all those tools would fit in the cabinet. then the price US$85, a pretty sum indeed in those days. using an online calculator they estimate it to be worth equal to US$1733 in todays money, which is probably not too bad when one calculates it.

if one was to buy those tools new today i would expect it to total considerably more than that if buying from LV, which i consider fairly modest lower end tools with some high quality amongst them (after doing some quick adding up i.e. a large steel roofing square from LV can cost over $110 but as little as $6 on amazon), if buying some of the tools from the various popular boutique tool choices people often refer to on the forums or the gentleman's brass and pretty wood affairs, it would be way way over, not even close to $1700, not even double that. if buying just from amazon, say. then it can be under or just over depending on choices of keeping the tools to a reasonable but not extravagant quality

but looking at official government docs on earnings, cost of living and any cash surplus or deficit families (in the US) had in 1917 at years end. that can be complicated to write here and now because they were hundreds of pages long and covered different locations (cities etc) and obviously not everyone earned the same amount. In brief, the lowest income families were in the red at the end of year by $40-50 while a small percentage was ahead by $350 at years end. but the majority of average people ranged from about $80-to over $200. so that tool chest with all the tools was aimed at picking the pockets of the larger amount of a families disposable cash at years end i would assume.


cheers
chippy