Thread: Help needed with a Stiletto

I got stuck in to the saw today. I felt that with all the effort put into the research and with the level of interest I really should do my bit too. As I said the teeth required a bit of dentistry. The first pic shows teeth partly shaped leading up to the fully jointed teeth:

Stiletto No.8 021.jpgStiletto No.8 019.jpgStiletto No.8 020.jpg

The handle got cleaned up, but still needs a crack glued up. It has had a single coat of BLO so far. I think I will just varnish now otherwise it will be too dark:

Stiletto No.8 018.jpg

Assmbled:

Stiletto No.8 023.jpgStiletto No.8 024.jpg

And the teeth looking better:

Stiletto No.8 026.jpg

Used up one file completely during the sharpening and started on a second file.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Chippy

My reasoning for the saws being outsourced was that the humble handsaw is ironically a very carefully made bit of gear and quite complex. I don't think it would have been worthwhile for a company to set up in opposition to the existing makers. All they had to do was place a sizeable order with the likes of Disston and Disston would etch whatever they wanted.

Only Simonds entered the market fresh around 1900 to 1903 and they were set up for it as they already made circular saws, bandsaws and logging saws. It was a logical step. Remember too that by the turn of of the century Disston had bought out nearly twenty other sawmakers.

Of course I may be entirely wrong. We'll see.

Regards
Paul

i agree entirely and much of the work is complicated, with tempering, grinding and smithing. although i somehow doubt, even though the Stiletto has so much similarities with the disston old #12 that it came from Disston, since the Stiletto has English steel etched onto it. obviously disston had their own steel in that period and i could not imagine him etching "english steel" on his own steel, i think he would turn in his grave someone suggesting it lol.

atkins and simons i believe used english steel (simonds after a time made their own as well i believe) . and of course the old tale goes that akins began with a tiny poorly built furnace for tempering that collapsed after one use, he gradually got better and made better furnaces, got more experienced and was somewhat driven to produce the very best saws possible in his mind. using the best steel possible, also the best tooth configuration on felling saws which were used not just to get 'lumber' but to clear forests for the railways. so much so that he heard of a couple of experienced loggers far away that had adapted a saw to their own tooth pattern that worked exceptionally well. after hearing this he went and found them, employed them and patented their tooth shape. after gaining much hands on experience he later went to england to source the best steel he could, from his side of the tale he asked sheffield for the very best steel they could make but they said what he was asking for was reserved for higher end implements such as steel used in cut-throat razors and overkill for hand saws. but that is what he is said to have gotten or imported which is why he called it silver steel. not containing any actual silver of course-but i assume the shinny silver brightness of a cut-throat razor may have given him the idea of what to call it.

cheers
chippy

Chippy

This is all conjecture of course and perhaps we will get some insight from Pacific Hardware, but I agree with you that Disston is unlikely as the manufacturer because of the English steel depicted on the etch. I think Simonds is ruled out because none of their saws had nickel plated saw screws, but Atkins used nickel plated saw screws on their No.400 and No.401 and they made a big thing of their imported English steel from Sheffield.

My understanding was that Elias Atkins was a metallurgist and went to the UK, as you said, with his own specification for steel. So much of it fits and it may have been a little quirk of marketing irony that he imitated the handles of Disston and Simonds top flight models. It is also interesting to note that his flagship saws had completely plain handles, albeit in Brazilian Rosewood. There was no conflict of interest.

Talking of the saw screws, the nickel plated types are easy to clean but the plating is thin and starts to wear showing the brass through. The pix make them look worse than they are:

Stiletto No.8 032.jpgStiletto No.8 031.jpg

The pix make them look all brass, but they are predominantly nickel with a little brass showing through. I think the silver was picking up reflection. You can see the eagle now on the medallion.

Regards
Paul

I received an email from Joel at Pacific hardware and it turns out that he has exactly the same saw:

Stiletto No 8 Rip Saw - handle Joel's.JPGStiletto No 8 Rip Saw - branding Joel's.JPG

He made reference to the 1917 catalogue that Ian turned up, but I believe we have gone one step further with Chippy's advertisement, which clearly shows an identical saw pre dating the 1917 catalogue.

Thanks for all the inputs and comment. I will post a final pic when the saw is finished.

Regards
Paul

Actually Joel's saw is slightly different in that it is a 6ppi rip while mine is an 8ppi crosscut, but I expect you know what I meant. Although his saw is unrestored, I did note that the handle looks very good without any damage at all.

Regards
Paul

Joel's saw certainly doesn't look like it was put to much use, even your though marked from age is not very worn(well i guest is, considering you had to retooth it)

i was meaning to ask, did your saw have an owner scratch on it, it aways interests me for some reason. you know, like many old saws the owner carved or cut his initials into it (usually on the opposite side of the wheat carving (which was mentioned above, certainly isn't about grip imo, if it was for grip with a right handed person the wheat carving would be on the other side), many didn't have initials which is often on a saw that didn't get a lot of use and statched away somewhere (lucky for us cos we can get a good saw then). some have a X mark cut into in the top of handle, which is too show its a cross cut , i often put a sticky dot on the top with a couple of things written just so i can see without taking out of the rack or box.

i was just having glass of water looking out the window and on my wall where i have a few saws hanging about, usually ones that need something doing to them or just some cheaper ones i don't use, occasionally from one i used and was too lazy to put away yet or expected to use it again soon. they have to go somewhere so hang from fencing wire hooks i have along the wall or roof with a bunch of other 'cool junk'. anyway from the distance i noticed one of them had nickel nuts that were shinning in the light. as i thought when i went to have a closer look it was an early disston D-115. nice rosewood handle so i guess even disston nickel plated a few.

on a different note, the post card i showed you of the 1908 Stiletto No.8 saw with the older logo has me quite intrigued. first i could assume that the store didn't have them in stock if he visited in person, which raises the question of how long did it take to order such a saw?. if he wired the money or ordered by post (not sure how that would be done?) it may account for the need for post card, although i suspect given the card was placed in the post on the 20 Nov 1908 and on the front it says "you can expect me about Saturday 28th" which would have only been a week later in nov. so i assume it must have been a close destination or proxcimitry to the San Fran store. (so perhaps a notification it was ready then)

the post card never got delivered, from insufficient address details (had a red stamp on it from the post office saying so). it was addressed to a S. Morris Esq (can't make out the writing or what the first name is-any ideas?) at Chinese Camp Cal. so i wonder if he ever actually got his saw and i have tried to look up Chinese Camp and came up with a number of possibilities, which is probably why the post office had trouble as well, not to mention back in those days a location of a Chinese Camp would not of been a place a white person would have liked to go to. extreme racism in those days against the chinese in those parts. although if the name is Morris would suggest he was from the UK. Esq in later years in the US was predominately used for lawyers but in those days could of been simply a polite way to address a customer in writing, or he was a pompous pom that referred to himself as Esq, perhaps someone of standing, even an officer on ship and there were thousand of ships left abounded in the 49 gold ruch, by officer and all. then raises the question of why a white guy is living at a chinese camp, perhaps a railway boss, perhaps a homeless refugee from the San Fran earth quake (that is said to still be one of the largest in the US) the topped many buildings (not the Pacific Hardware building which still stands today) and what didn't fall over set alight from burst gas mains and they had a huge fire and many thousands left homeless for a while. the city was quickly rebuilt (and apparently chinatown was very damaged) which would have been great business for Pacific Hardware and put a lot of their tools to work including saws such as these Stiletto's.

then in a seperate issue of the Sac Times newspaper the few months prior to Nov (august) a Chinese camp (more like a town but referred to as a camp) in sacramento burnt down, so the saw could have put to use there (not too far south of San Fran). there was also another few camps nearer San Fran but one place that is still officially called Chinese Camp Cal, as it was then too. that still stands but is a ghost town now but still going in 1908, however it was quite some miles east of San Fran, i would think by the time he got the postcard the saw wouldn't be far behind. not sure if they had a railway to that destination

anyway quite few things that are puzzles which i find interesting. wouldn't be something! if you saw had S.M. carved in side

one thing to come out of this is the firm selling Stiletto now really need to revise their heritage as Baker and Hamilton came to the SF as one of the many people known as the 49ers but were likely deceased before the brand actually got started in Germany and it was Pacific Hardware & Steel whom acquired the brand in later years

hers a pic of the back of the postcard if anyone can make out the name. i've tried searching for the fellow (S. Morris) but haven't come up with him yet

cheers
chippy

stiletto post card.jpg

Saul?

Speaking of Stilletos, who knew that Turner made shoes as well as planes???
image.jpg
No - they are not my shoes!

So you say. Nice heel.

BTW I have finished the Stiletto (saw). I will assemble it tomorrow and post a pic.

Regards
Paul

Pix of the finished Stiletto No.8 as promised (threatened )

Stiletto No.8 008.jpgStiletto No.8 001.jpgStiletto No.8 002.jpgStiletto No.8 003.jpgStiletto No.8 004.jpgStiletto No.8 006.jpgStiletto No.8 007.jpg

Interesting how the reflection of light can alter the colour of the handle so dramatically. Fortunately the camera cannot lie.

Regards
Paul

Dear All
Just came across this thread and was alerted to the word Stiletto.
I have two of the No 8 saws in large and small sizes;later versions than Bushies.
I too have wondered as to the origins of these saws as they compare very well to Disston 115; but the English steel had me thinking of a source other than Disston.
Baker and Hamilton had their Stiletto chisels made in Sweden by Jernbolaget so they liked quality.(see Galootopia Swedish Chisels)
I should get off my backside and post something on the Lumberjocks Saw site and see if they know anything.
I am at work at present so no photos till later on.
Cheers
Tony

So here are some Stiletto No8 pics
We have a 26inch 5pointer and a 22inch 8pointer.
Handle quality equals Disston #112.
Cheers
TonyDSCF3223.jpgDSCF3224.jpgDSCF3225.jpgDSCF3239.jpgIMG_2166.jpgIMG_2167.jpgIMG_2168.jpgIMG_2169.jpg

Thanks for those pix AJOE and good to hear from you. I think these Stilettos are something of an enigma. The irony is that if you look at the advertisements posted earlier in the thread you will see that the No.8 was only middle of the range and in that respect mirrored the Disston No.8.

However, in some ways I think the No.8 punched above it's weight in regard to styling in particular and would have been good value. The mystery remains as to who manufactured it. Our initial thoughts were EC Atkins, but that is only a guess.

Until I started researching this saw with the help of other Forum members I thought a stiletto was a shoe or a knife, a bit like my first two frivolous pix in the first post.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Pix of the finished Stiletto No.8 as promised (threatened )

Stiletto No.8 008.jpgStiletto No.8 001.jpgStiletto No.8 002.jpgStiletto No.8 003.jpgStiletto No.8 004.jpgStiletto No.8 006.jpgStiletto No.8 007.jpg

Interesting how the reflection of light can alter the colour of the handle so dramatically. Fortunately the camera cannot lie.

Regards
Paul

Wow Paul,
That looks sensational I've never seen a saw with such a high plate.
Yes I know I'm showing my ignorance here O well.
It just looks huge in the pics

Matt