Thread: Homemade Plane Blades from M2 HSS for Wooden Planes

Sumu thanks for the link.

I had a look at the O1, O2, and D2 steel listed on the link page. Why is it that people are buying these steel and then tempering the O1, O2, and D2 steel again at home to use in plane blades? As discussed in this sawmill creek thread

Should not the hardening and tempering from the factory / manufacture be enough, so why do it again yourself at home?

Also if this is not the case and a second home tempering is needed for O1, O2, and D2 steel, why do I not need to temper M2 HSS?

OK - Nothing is ever simple.

Armed with what I know from this thread I called up Bohler Uddeholm Australia, and they can supply almost any alloy in most sizes.

Bohler Uddeholm sells all their steel at a low rockwell of around 30 Rc. This means that I would need to have the steel hardened to around RC 63 - 64 for M2 HSS and D2 to around 58 - 60 Rc. Then because all the pieces of metal are over 15 mm thick I would need to have them ground on a Rotary Lapping Machine.

Now this sounds rather complex. However after making some call's and thanks to Bohler Uddeholm I have the following information. I can buy a piece of D2 in the following size of 50 x 15 x 1000 at $90 or a piece of M2 at $192. Then I can give it to another mob who will grind the D2/M2 down to 8+/- mm and then harden to 58 - 60 Rc and cut the D2/M2 steel into 10 cm blades with a 30 primary bevel. This process will take a total of 1 week to do from start to finish.

D2 from Bohler Uddeholm at 50 x 15 x 1000 mm is $90 plus GST == $99
D2 from Bohler Uddeholm at 70 x 15 x 1000 mm is $120 plus GST == $132
M2 from Bohler Uddeholm at 50 x 15 x 1000 mm is $192 plus GST == $211.2

Plus

Hardening and Stress Reliving for a meter by Hills Heat Treatment == $36 plus GST
Grinding to 8mm thickness == $80 plus GST charged by the hour, he says it would take about an hour.

A D2 blade 50 x 8 x 100 mm with a 30º primary bevel and a Rc of 58 - 60 == $21.5 inc. GST per blade.

A D2 blade 70 x 8 x 100 mm with a 30º primary bevel and a Rc of 58 - 60 == $24.8 inc. GST per blade.

A M2 blade 50 x 8 x 100 mm with a 30º primary bevel and a RC 63 - 64 == $32.72 inc. GST per blade.

Prices are not solid as I need to confirm again on Monday however it should be marginal.

I would be opting for D2 over M2 because it is almost as hard with very high wear resistance, and good toughness. Best cutting-edge endurance and resistance to tempering. D2 is half the price and Bohler Uddeholm can supply it in more sizes 50 mm and 70 mm. Bohler Uddeholm says that is hard to get M2 wider then 50 mm.

I think that this price compares very favorable with anything that others can sell - Academy Saws $120 for M2 at 6 mm, Hock $55+ shipping from the U.S. for A2 at 8 mm or Lie-Nielsen Australia $60 at 6 mm for A2. And as far as I can tell making your own blades will or should be no different to anything they are selling. The only difference is that these blades would not have a hole for a chip breaker in the blade however at 55º+ bed and a 8 mm thick blade a chip breaker is not needed. The only thing I can think of is the cryo treatment. However how hard could it be to cryo treat a blade? *Mad scientist laugh*

Hock grinds his blades to 3/32" or 8.1 mm. I would not mind doing the same and get the blades ground and lapped to 8 mm instead of 6 mm Lie-Nielsen or Academy Saws. The grinding service will be straight edge flat as well so no extra work to do lapping the back.

All in all it is much cheaper and easier then I had imagined to have this done for you, knowing that it is all done right. This being the case, I would like to know if people would like to get in on getting some blades made up and splitting the cost.

I would order four D2 blades at 50 x 8 x 100 and two D2 blades at 70 x 8 x 100. We could even get some M2 blades at 50 x 8 x 100 made up if their is interest.

Sounds promising.

Not that I know much but recalling a post by Alastair that referred to comparative tests by Brent Beach (was it?), hardness is only one measure and not a direct correlate of edge holding.

(And from memory, edge holding tests showed good results for HSS for Academy, Mujifang and Stanley).

Selecting tool steel not only a question of hardness but how sharp an edge it can make. D2 is an excellent tough wearing steel and it is because of this it is used in power tool blades and also fine cutting tools. It's generally out of the reach of folks who want to do their own heat treatment because D2 requires a controlled atmosphere furnace to heat treat properly.

I'll be very interested to hear how you get on.

Cheers

Originally Posted by BobL

I'll be very interested to hear how you get on.

I think it is feasible, I have access to the D2 steel which will give me the properties I need for a plane blade like edge retention, and I have access to a vacuum furnace to temper the steel. As far as my understanding goes I seem to have my bases covered.

Just remembered about stress reliving! If I want the blades to stay straight I will need them stress relived. I called up and prices have been adjusted accordingly.

I called up the Hills Heat Treatment and they said with stress reliving it would be $36 a meter for D2 steel and it would still take a week. The updated figures are:

D2 from Bohler Uddeholm at 50 x 15 x 1000 mm is $90 plus GST == $99
D2 from Bohler Uddeholm at 70 x 15 x 1000 mm is $120 plus GST == $132
M2 from Bohler Uddeholm at 50 x 15 x 1000 mm is $192 plus GST == $211.2

Plus

Hardening and Stress Reliving for a meter by Hills Heat Treatment == $36 plus GST
Grinding to 8mm thickness == $80 plus GST charged by the hour, he says it would take about an hour.

A D2 blade 50 x 8 x 100 mm with a 30º primary bevel and a Rc of 58 - 60 == $21.5 inc. GST per blade.

A D2 blade 70 x 8 x 100 mm with a 30º primary bevel and a Rc of 58 - 60 == $24.8 inc. GST per blade.

A M2 blade 50 x 8 x 100 mm with a 30º primary bevel and a RC 63 - 64 == $32.72 inc. GST per blade.

Prices are not solid as I need to confirm again on Monday however it should be marginal.
Is their anything else I need to cover?

Hello TS,

Originally Posted by thumbsucker

Is their anything else I need to cover?

If you think you need a chipbreaker for some irons, one groove-style hole in the middle of the iron should be machined before hardening. If not, then it's ok. But afterwards after tempering, I'd say the only practical method is abrasive water-jet cutting to get a clean hole while not losing tempering.

I see it is a bit different as a private customer thereabouts, too. Bohler-Uddeholm is perfectly capable to harden and temper their steels as well, but they are obviously not proposing it to a (in their mind) someone who is most presumably just a one-time private customer. It is expensive to them. It's not rare behaviour from a large international business enterprise, but in the case of a private customer, they also are aware that kind of service chain of smaller service providers you have readily solved out. It is going on here as it should be.

It is of course true that most of the steel is used in some other form than just as a flat rectangular bar, but it has been available just as a tempered plain stock, too. It is a shape as well, and we have used it that way, directly from the factory. Surprisingly often, it has been elemental to get the pieces precision machined after the heat treatment stages, because of those small but significant dimensional changes during heat treatment. Sometimes even quite rough water-jet cutting has been done in special cases.

It is always an adventure to get things going when figuring out them necessary suppliers and services. I can't even remember how many times I have been in similar kind of situations. I have had to solve simple but advanced technical problems like NDAs, legislation, export restrictions, you name it.

But most of the "fun" has been when facing general stubborness, laziness, attitude problems, bullshitting and so on. In a couple of cases I have had a feeling I am visiting some kind of parallel dimension where language sounds the same but all the concepts and nomenclature seemed to essentially deviate from the reality I normally experience. Believe me, it can get sometimes really really weird.

But in your case, it seems quite good, because in a short time you have received precise offers for the entire service chain, and also estimated time of delivery for most of the stages. It implies to that guys in the other end have routine on what they are offering. Seems to be good at the moment.

You be the mad scientist, it's a perfectly good state of mind .

kippis,

sumu

TS

If you're interested in parting with a few of the finished blades let me know. More than happy to pay above cost as you're putting in all the effort. D2 M2 I'm not too fussed as at those levels of hardness and toughness there will be little difference in wood.

Can you send me the contact details of the steel provider

Thx Mat

I had a look at the O1, O2, and D2 steel listed on the link page. Why is it that people are buying these steel and then tempering the O1, O2, and D2 steel again at home to use in plane blades? As discussed in this sawmill creek thread

Should not the hardening and tempering from the factory / manufacture be enough, so why do it again yourself at home?

Also if this is not the case and a second home tempering is needed for O1, O2, and D2 steel, why do I not need to temper M2 HSS?

My (limited) understanding of D2 is that it is exceptionally hard - what are you going to grind it with? - and does not take a good edge (not nearly as good as O1). Is the grain structure larger?

The reason why O1 may get re-hardened is that it is easier to file and reshape a blade when it is soft. O1 (I do not know O2) can be done at home easily enough. D1 and HSS are thereby ruled out unless you have the special furness, etc.

All-in-all, O1 seems to be the steel that is most user-friendly for a woodworker with limited tools. Personally, I would rather hone a softer steel a few more times than struggle to hone a hard steel and never get it sharp.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Toolin and Sumu thanks for the support. I will confirm prices on Monday. Toolin the steel supplier is Bohler Uddeholm Australia 282-290 Greens Rd Dandenong VIC 3175 (03) 9767 5554, I have been talking to Reece.

Toolin I have sent you PM.

The first run will produce ten D2 blades at 50 x 8 x 100 mm with a 30º primary bevel and a Rc of 58 - 60 == $21.5 inc. GST per blade. Four have been spoken for by me, Toolin and kman-oz have their names down for a few. So if you interested PM, before the first ten blades are gone. If people would pay $21.5 costs per blade, the postage and a small discretionary donation as I will give them a good sharpening before posting, then I would be more then happy to make all the arrangements.

*Note* These blades are suitable only for low profile planes like the HNT Gordon, Krenov Style planes or most homemade wood planes, and are meant to be used without a chip breaker, just like the HNT Gordon planes.

Full marks for the investigation TS.

A model for the rest of us.

Their are now only 2 blades left, with Toolin, kman-oz, m2c1Iw, BobL and myself taking the remaining eight blades amongst us.

The ETA for the blades will be hopefully just before xmas. A few people are talking pickup which is great maybe split a beer or two as well.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

My (limited) understanding of D2 is that it is exceptionally hard - what are you going to grind it with? - and does not take a good edge (not nearly as good as O1). Is the grain structure larger?

Derek, D2 is a steel common used in dies and punches but is also used for fine knives and can be made exceedingly sharp.
See:
http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.kn...30057d5a18dca8
and
http://www.cutleryscience.com/review...ials.html#T_D2

In terms of grain size there is very little difference between these metals but in decreasing grain size the order is M2, O1 and D2
see
http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.kn...30057d5a18dca8

It also approaches a stainless in terms of corrosion resistance.

Sharpening hard stuff has been discussed many times so I won't restart.

Although I'm happy with my O1 and free old files for the time being I'l1 put my hand up for 1 for compaartive purposes.

Thanks Thumbsucker for setting this up.

Cheers

Bob it is no problem as I said in the PM, I think that we all are interested in comparing these blades and those made by the commercial mob. If it works and we get some very good blades from it. I think it may be a great thing for lots of people on the board. In as so far that we can do it again giving members access to thick blades made from good steel with high wear resistance, good toughness and one the best cutting-edge endurance of any steel on the market today.

*Remember their are only two blades left*

BobL you seem to be the most knowledge able on this matter of tool steel, what would your recommendation be for the exact tempering process in regards to temperature and the number of times the D2 is tempered to achieve the best structure, and grain. As well as the rockwel hardness that would be best suited to our purposes of plane blades. Also what is your view of cryo as it is said

Refrigeration after the first temper may improve long term dimensional stability by transforming retained austenite.

- is it worth it and who would cryo it for me?

Would I be asking to much if I specified the tempering process undertaken by the heat treatment people?

Regarding this argument on grain size my reading of the http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.kn...30057d5a18dca8 is that D2 has a Shepard fracture grain size of 7.5 where A2 has a grain size of 8.5 and O1 has a grain size of 9. Does that mean that D2 has a finer grain size then A2 and O1? Or is the scale backwards?

TS

I am also interested in trying one out. So put me down for one blade.

I would like to make one recommendation - have the primary bevel ground at 25 degrees (NOT 30 degrees). With steel this hard, it is easier to add a microbevel than hone a fullbevel. This is the case whether one hollow grinds or works with a flat bevel. A primary bevel of 25 degrees allows for more options. Plus it is easier to camber a microbevel (of the angle you desire) on a 25 degree PB than on a 30 degree PB, and so the blade may be used bevel up or bevel down.

Regards from Perth

Derek