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  1. #1
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    Default Incomplete Maker's Mark

    I recently picked up this butchering saw and have not been able to make out the maker's mark. I've looked through lists of saw makers in New York and not found anything that aligns with the visible letters. Is anyone familiar with a company that matches the part of the mark that's visible? It would be fairly old, probably pre-1880 considering the split nuts. Also, any recommendations for other forums I should post on would be appreciated. I looked through a few woodworking forums and this one seemed the best, but I'm open to recommendations.



    Thanks, Jasper

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  3. #2
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    Are the pictures not visible if copy and pasted in?

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper M View Post
    Are the pictures not visible if copy and pasted in?
    No.

    Have a look here to see how to add pictures.
    Cheers

    DJ

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  6. #5
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    The 1880 census shows 2,421 tool and cutlery makers in New York. It is an interesting hunt which I don’t have time to help with. Can you try other photographic techniques? Even an incomplete stamp should have left some trace in the blade.
    It's all part of the service here at The House of Pain™

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    Do you have any recommendations? I've tried to make sense of it in good lighting for a while but haven't been able to parse out anything not visible in the picture

  8. #7
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    Post it in the "Saws, using, collecting, cleaning and restoring" group on Facebook. There's some guys on there that know a lot about New York saws in particular.

    Sent from my SM-A115F using Tapatalk

  9. #8
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    Depending on what the first three letters are it could be:

    RM Hoe. Perhaps "Hoe & Company Ltd." They were NY based and made saws 1828 - 1919.

    It could also be:

    John Holden or EJ Holden who both made saws in NY in the 1870s.

    However, many companies employed the major saw manufacturers to make saws on their behalf and the butcher supply specialists would have been no different. Most of the specialist saw manufacturers (Disston, Atkins, etc) had ten or so models of butcher's hacksaws in their range.

    Some more pix of the frame and handle may help to identify the original maker if not the "owner." Any further identification of the missing letters would also help. The very last letter looks like a "D" which could easily be a part of "Ltd."

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  10. #9
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    Youtube has some videos on recovering ground off serial numbers, but the techniques are inconsistent with antique tool preservation. But there are non invasive techniques if you know anybody in a university level physics lab.

    On edit: Ican read anything into rust pitting, but it seems to me the stamping is “HOL? xxxxx xED. I originally thought that it was IND, but you can see the ghost of the E is the same as the E in “New York” The character before that also has a strong horizontal element...B D E L ?

    The fourth character can only be D, E or L
    It's all part of the service here at The House of Pain™

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Q View Post
    Youtube has some videos on recovering ground off serial numbers, but the techniques are inconsistent with antique tool preservation. But there are non invasive techniques if you know anybody in a university level physics lab.

    On edit: Ican read anything into rust pitting, but it seems to me the stamping is “HOL? xxxxx xED. I originally thought that it was IND, but you can see the ghost of the E is the same as the E in “New York” The character before that also has a strong horizontal element...B D E L ?

    The fourth character can only be D, E or L
    That's as far as I could get too. I'll look into the YouTube stuff. Holden seems the top suspect at the moment. I'll look into some of their marks to see if I can find anything that looks similar

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Depending on what the first three letters are it could be:

    RM Hoe. Perhaps "Hoe & Company Ltd." They were NY based and made saws 1828 - 1919.

    It could also be:

    John Holden or EJ Holden who both made saws in NY in the 1870s.

    However, many companies employed the major saw manufacturers to make saws on their behalf and the butcher supply specialists would have been no different. Most of the specialist saw manufacturers (Disston, Atkins, etc) had ten or so models of butcher's hacksaws in their range.

    Some more pix of the frame and handle may help to identify the original maker if not the "owner." Any further identification of the missing letters would also help. The very last letter looks like a "D" which could easily be a part of "Ltd."

    Regards
    Paul

    IMG_20210424_115632740 (1).jpg
    IMG_20210424_115727355 (1).jpg
    There's also a stamp which says steel backs, but I couldn't get a good picture.

    Jasper

  13. #12
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    Jasper

    Those pix are helpful. Out of the major manufacturers I have discounted Simonds as they only went into handsaws in 1900 (I am assuming this included butcher's saws too, but I have no access to catalogues before 1903) and this means they would not have used split nuts. The glover patent, which is the "modern" saw screw with which we are all familiar dates from 1887. An 1899 catalogue for EC Atkins did not show any saws that had the same style and also by that date it is unlikely Atkins were using split nuts.

    The pix distinctly show an unusual treatment of the handle surrounding the top saw screw: A small extension along the handle and the abrupt right angle turn into main body of the handle.

    This pic of a Disston No.4 from the 1876 catalogue shows the same handle style and the retention nut at the tension end looks remarkably similar too with that shield shape.

    P1070524 (Medium).JPG
    Jasper's butcher's saw 1.jpg Jasper's butcher's saw 2.jpg

    The toe is slightly different with the blade protruding past the frame, but it is not too much of a stretch to say that it is a little clumsy and may have been refined over the succeeding years up until, say, 1890ish. Also the curvature of the handle is not identical, but the general style is so distinctive......

    However, that does not help as to the name of the company that actually sold the saw. More work needed there.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Jasper

    Those pix are helpful. Out of the major manufacturers I have discounted Simonds as they only went into handsaws in 1900 (I am assuming this included butcher's saws too, but I have no access to catalogues before 1903) and this means they would not have used split nuts. The glover patent, which is the "modern" saw screw with which we are all familiar dates from 1887. An 1899 catalogue for EC Atkins did not show any saws that had the same style and also by that date it is unlikely Atkins were using split nuts.

    The pix distinctly show an unusual treatment of the handle surrounding the top saw screw: A small extension along the handle and the abrupt right angle turn into main body of the handle.

    This pic of a Disston No.4 from the 1876 catalogue shows the same handle style and the retention nut at the tension end looks remarkably similar too with that shield shape.

    The toe is slightly different with the blade protruding past the frame, but it is not too much of a stretch to say that it is a little clumsy and may have been refined over the succeeding years up until, say, 1890ish. Also the curvature of the handle is not identical, but the general style is so distinctive......

    However, that does not help as to the name of the company that actually sold the saw. More work needed there.

    Regards
    Paul
    That's some great stuff.

    I just gave it an extra thorough look over but found no new marks. I did find a few things of interest, but I've no idea if they'll help with identification. The square at the bottom of the handle end looks to have been formed by folding the end of the bar of metal over and welding it, which makes sense. It also thins out within the handle, and the handle follows this, which is some nice execution. It was coated originally in some sort of coating that looks very similar to whatever they put on the dark golden sinker nails.
    IMG_20210429_123933238_HDR (1).jpg
    I tried to read into the mark a little further and had some success. (H)(O)(L,E)(L,E,D)(E?)(?) (?)(F?)(L,E?)(E)(D)
    Could be confirmation bias, but the first word looks a lot like HOLDEN
    IMG_20210429_131347297.jpg

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