Thread: Is a saw a saw?

Silk purse from sow's ears comes to mind. However, when you mention purses ...
Cheers,
Jim

There's a company in Japan which takes Nissan products and puts on Jaguar-like front and back end bodywork.

Pretty sure they still perform like Nissans.

Another phrase that comes to mind involves turds and polish...

Eddie, cleaning and a decent sharpening would make any saw perform a lot better. Just how well it can be made to work depends on what you've got to work with, of course. If the blades are badly pitted, it will be hard to get clean teeth, but surface rust won't hurt. I've found you can clean up a rusty saw pretty easily with abrasive paper - no need for acids or eletrolysis. Uncomfortable, poorly-designed handles don't help, and overly-thick plate isn't great, so weigh up their chances before you expend a whole lt of energy on them. It isn't essential that a saw be taper-ground, it makes a good saw even better, perhaps, but you can still get good service out of a non-tapered saw if it's clean & properly set & sharpened.

If I were in your shoes, I would choose a couple that look the most promising, clean them up, and practic sharpeningf & setting them - that way you have nothing to lose & something to gain. If you could get yourself one really decent saw to use as your yardstick, you would have something to aim for.....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by switt775

Another phrase that comes to mind involves turds and polish...

Well, yes yes, that is what I thought initially too. But when you think about it, a saw's performance depends upon things like:

1) How the teeth are filed i.e. fleam, set, rake, progressive pitch (if you're fancy). This depends largely on the sharpener, not the saw - although it's obviously far easier to start out in the right place.

2) The hang angle of the handle. Again, if you're making your own handle, this is up to the user?

3) The properties of the steel used in the saw blade. Again, provided the teeth are hard without being brittle, I doubt I'd run into trouble here. There was nothing special about Disston steel - it was all just high carbon, relatively simple alloy, and all of their different steels were of identical composition, regardless of the marketing (the production technique was what was remarkable). I've seen that several members of this forum have used floor scrapers to make saw plates. So I'm guessing that saw plate steel isn't super important.

4) The width and taper of the saw plate. This, I confess, is an issue, at least with the Disston.

5) How the handle fits your hand. Refer to #2.

6) How pretty it is. Personally, I think that a properly restored handsaw blade - from any saw, really - together with a nice handle and some quality sawnuts - would look just fine.

So again - is there any reason why such a Frankensaw could not perform well... (With specifics, please...)

I would say practice on what you have. Even if they are not very good saws, why practice on good saws? Learn to file on the ones you have while keeping your eye out for better saws. If the saws you have have straight plates and good steel in them they should be fine. Make sure they don't have hardened teeth before you start filing them.

Originally Posted by snafuspyramid

......The properties of the steel used in the saw blade. Again, provided the teeth are hard without being brittle, I doubt I'd run into trouble here. There was nothing special about Disston steel - it was all just high carbon, relatively simple alloy, and all of their different steels were of identical composition, regardless of the marketing......

Eddie, I've read the same thing about Disston steels in a couple of places. Don't know how reliable the info is, but it has a ring of truth to it; those old Yankees were good at a lot of things, but especially marketing! From my own experience, there was some variability in the hardness of Disston steels, too - every batch didn't come out exactly the same. Most of the half-dozen or so old Disstons I've lived with were easy to file, but one old backsaw I struck was very hard & made a mess of a new file in a hurry.

I've sharpened & used quite a few saws of all sorts of 'qualities', and there is certainly variation in the hardness of the metal. Ditto for the steels I've been using for the last few years for saw-maaking (hardly surprising given they have come from a variety of sources). As I've said elsewhere, that doesn't seem to translate into a detectable difference in edge-holding ability. However, I always add the caveat that it's very hard to compare saws because the intervals between sharpenings vary so much due to use patterns, and because each of my saws is different, so no two can be directly compared. The builders' scraper blades are on the upper side of the hardness scale for saws (as measured by BobL), but I don't have any equivalent size or tooth pitches in any other plate to compare them with. My impression, fwiw, is that they last no longer than anything else, but that's not reliable, partly because I tend to use these saws the most. Intuition says a harder metal should stay sharp longer. I guess what it all means is that there are too many other variables involved in what makes a saw good or bad to use, and you have listed the main ones.

One attribute not on your list 'tensioning' - Disston figured out how to do this on a mass-production scale to an amazing standard, & a well-tensioned blade really stands out from the crowd. I reckon this is one of the main things that can make a good saw excellent - I'm trying to teach myself the art, but have a loong ways to go....

So, there are no compelling reasons that I can think of not to have a go at your collection. And I'll say it again, because I'm a boring old f*rt, but any time spent working on tools like that is never time wasted. You will learn lots about what makes a saw do its thing, & even if you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear, I'm sure a sow's ear can make a rugged & useful container......

Cheers,

The simplest things can make a huge difference. BD and I were crosscutting some dry elm (2" thick, 2' across) at the weekend with two good saws equally sharp. One is an Atkins the other a Disston. The Disston stood out purely because its handle made it so much more comfortable and easy to use.
Cheers,
Jim

Originally Posted by jimbur

The simplest things can make a huge difference. BD and I were crosscutting some dry elm (2" thick, 2' across) at the weekend with two good saws equally sharp. One is an Atkins the other a Disston. The Disston stood out purely because its handle made it so much more comfortable and easy to use.
Cheers,
Jim

Jim - do you mean the quality/feel of the handle? or the hang angle?

The Atkins that I have seen are very different to the Disstons ... I have something to put up on that soon.

Snafu - what's your best candidate for resurrection?

Thanks,
Paul

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Snafu - what's your best candidate for resurrection?

Thanks,
Paul

I'll probably only restore two, because that should be adequately "educational". One is the late model Disston backsaw I mentioned. The other is a ripsaw with a black plastic handle. It's been in the family for a good deal longer than I have, and my old man gave it too me as if it were a treasured relic. It has no maker's mark, and knowing my father's taste in tools was almost certainly crap even back when he bought it. But hey, that saw and I have a history, albeit an unhappy one (I remember cross-cutting ten 2' wide yellow gum boughs with it).

It has never been sharpened.

Pics soon.

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Jim - do you mean the quality/feel of the handle? or the hang angle?

The Atkins that I have seen are very different to the Disstons ... I have something to put up on that soon.

both Paul. The Disston is better shaped apple wood and makes the blade feel part of my arm. The Atkins handle is chunkier and makes me feel as if I'm above the blade. Not that the Atkins has really had a fair go as I tend to stick to the one I like best.
Cheers,
Jim
ps this is the sixth time I've tried to get this reply in.

Originally Posted by snafuspyramid

So again - is there any reason why such a Frankensaw could not perform well..

the answer to this topic could get very long as there is so much that could be said, i'll endeavour to be very brief but it will miss some points.

"perform well" is subjective, what is "well" for me may be different to you, but certainly you can get some nasty plastic handled thing (or anything really) from the 50-60- 70s or today and make it work well enough, depending on the timber and task your asking of it ,it may even do it nearly the same (especially if the plate was good to start with and only the handle was its low point), with no noticeable difference to you, compared to some old saws...on the other hand you would (should) notice the difference instantly using a excellent quality old saw compared to even a good quality old saw, let alone comparing in actual use to a new (ish) saw

Originally Posted by snafuspyramid

Well, yes yes, that is what I thought initially too. But when you think about it, a saw's performance depends upon things like:

1) How the teeth are filed i.e. fleam, set, rake, progressive pitch (if you're fancy). This depends largely on the sharpener, not the saw - although it's obviously far easier to start out in the right place.

the tpi and fleam etc can vary according to the quality of the steel and the thickness of the steel, to do a fine job all these things and many more things are matched perfectly to suit the saw plate you have to work with

Originally Posted by snafuspyramid

2) The hang angle of the handle. Again, if you're making your own handle, this is up to the user?

it can be a fair bit of work to change a handle from one saw to another (or a copy of another) the metal needs cutting and drilling and the handle in some cases will need a circular slot cut into it, your probably not set up for that, in some cases easy enough, so yeah your right, but in other cases a pita or near impossible. also the shape of the saw plate (the back, may need to totally recut to match the new design, hang angle and handle, have you got enough plate left for the design of the saw you wanted? is the handle size matching the new size/length of the plate (if you see where i'm going you'll start to get an inkling thats its a lot of work when you can just go and buy an old saw (top quality, from the flea market for $15 or $30). but sure its entirely doable.

Originally Posted by snafuspyramid

3) The properties of the steel used in the saw blade. Again, provided the teeth are hard without being brittle, I doubt I'd run into trouble here. There was nothing special about Disston steel - it was all just high carbon, relatively simple alloy, and all of their different steels were of identical composition, regardless of the marketing (the production technique was what was remarkable). I've seen that several members of this forum have used floor scrapers to make saw plates. So I'm guessing that saw plate steel isn't super important.

you might not run into trouble per say (they all work, so in essence your correct) but there are some differences with steel used in saws of various decades, the further apart the decades the more difference i find, some steels require using a thicker gauge for the same job, to sustain a particular size tooth, in other cases some steels tension up better, some steel even if hardness is less will turn out sharper and stay sharp just as long or longer ,a bit like how i find pre-war baily plane blades, and quite a few other old plane blades take a sharper edge than later years bailey blades for example, nowadays we have some good steels as well, like clifton, hock etc etc that also take a very sharp edge..can you still get a bailey blade to work well enough for many jobs but they are not worth sharpening beyond 5 or down toward .5 micron for example, waste of time...not to the same degree but similar with some more modern saws, they work and seem sharp enough and seem to last long enough but compared they are not as good as some of the older steels. but its a wide net to cast so thats just a generalisation, some modern saws have good steel just not the extra work put into the saw. there are many post war disstons etc that the steel is still good but they miss some other features of extra work, but yeah the steel is still good or the same, the extra work is in tensioning, grinding and polishing and using thinner gauge (for a given tooth size and length) is among the main difference in disstons of difference price of say the pre war series, even though their marketing focused on the steel quality, maybe it was just easier to sell that way, and of course the work put into the handle etc also contributed...so yes they all are carbon steel but not all carbon steels are the same, newer saws i find much different, some are not bad but some are pretty horrible to work on

Originally Posted by snafuspyramid

4) The width and taper of the saw plate. This, I confess, is an issue, at least with the Disston.

its a very nice feature to have, using a tapered saw is nicer, doesnt mean you cant use one thats not, many times with no bother at all (and in sawing very large wet or green-ish wood doesn't do much at all, doesn't hurt though), you might just have to work a fraction harder or leave a ruffer finish in other instances, other times you might have to wedge apart the kerf before you needed to, if you had to at all, than when using a taper ground saw...one point not usually mentioned with taper ground saws is a nice taper ground saw also feels much nicer in the hand (does to me anyway, i notice instantly), its more balanced and often they can feel much lighter too, that doesnt contribute to the cut at all of course but sawing should be a pleasure, perhaps second in fun to planning, using a nice (well set up) saw goes a long way to making it that way

Originally Posted by snafuspyramid

5) How the handle fits your hand. Refer to #2.

true, first thing and nearly the most important thing with a hand saw is how its fits your hand, more so even than the smaller back saw cousins

Originally Posted by snafuspyramid

6) How pretty it is. Personally, I think that a properly restored handsaw blade - from any saw, really - together with a nice handle and some quality sawnuts - would look just fine.

sure the rust can be removed, there is a slight advantage to having a shiny saw plate, with smoothness, forget about that reflection advantage thing people talk about (how you use the reflection to help square up the saw), that is without a doubt one of the silliest things going about i see on the internet and written by the 'guru' to do with saw technic (and on TV i noticed the other day too, by that curly headed TV carpenter dude too, good grief! normally i find him entertaining, i guess did this time as well, but a very foolish thing for him to say), learn properly to start with, without building a rod for your own back and having to rely on that crutch. back to point, usually the blades smooth up very well, better than many off the shelf new saws actually, pitting in many cases wont bother the saw, if you happen to spray clear lacquer on the saw plate (which has some benefits but sometimes some drawbacks as well) it can eventually fill them, bit if much pitting is near the teeth it can be bad news as the teeth can be compromised

Originally Posted by snafuspyramid

So again - is there any reason why such a Frankensaw could not perform well... (With specifics, please...)

so, like i said it just depends on whats 'well' enough, sure you can make something very usable, something you might be happy with (certainly the exercise would provide some positives), but you cant turn it into a disston #12 no matter what you do and i assure you these type of saws do feel and work differently to a contemporary saw


hope that helps , not inflame haha



also ...its a bit off topic but the questions about atkins vs disston hang angle have some truth to it but some disston models have the same (lets say) extreme angles and some atkins are more laid back just like a disston, it just depends on the saw model and year you choose, and there are good reasons to choose one type over another..perhaps if anyone found it worthwhile (aka as doesnt mind me rambling on and reading it) i could show some different hand saws and how they differ from my perpective, some of their strengths or limitations etc



cheers
chippy

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

also ...its a bit off topic but the questions about atkins vs disston hang angle have some truth to it but some disston models have the same (lets say) extreme angles and some atkins are more laid back just like a disston, it just depends on the saw model and year you choose, and there are good reasons to choose one type over another..perhaps if anyone found it worthwhile (aka as doesnt mind me rambling on and reading it) i could show some different hand saws and how they differ from my perpective, some of their strengths or limitations etc

Yeah ... time for Chippy to start a thread

A short excerpt from Ron Herman's second DVD on saws ... on what he calls the thrust line.

There is also a part at the end where he discusses tensioning a saw. It is good info, and the only thing I have seen on the topic other than Bob Smalser. I might be able to put up just a whisker of that part.

Paul

A brand new craftsman made saw is going to be hard to beat but theres no fun in buying a new one.