Thread: Iv'e caught the Plane bug

I am not surprised that you and many others get confused over this issue & I will attempt to clarify it as concisely and clearly as I can.

The bed angle is the angle between the sole of the plane and the bed of the plane where the blade lies, which in the case of your block plane is 12 degrees. Then there is the sharpened, or ground, angle on the blade which in the case of you block plane is 25 degrees. The effective cutting angle is the angle between the sole of the plane and the cutting surface of the blade which in your block plane is 12 degrees plus 25 degrees as the blade lies with the "bevel up" giving an effective cutting angle of 37 degrees.

A 'standard' plane such as a Stanley or LN #7 has a bed angle of 45 degrees, and as the blade is "bevel down"' the effective cutting angle is 45 degrees.

if you wish to retain the effective cutting angle of your block plane at 37 degrees then you would keep grinding the blade at 25 degrees.

One benefit of the low angle planes such as those sold by LV is you can simply change the effective cutting angle by changing the angle of the bevel on the bevel up blade by having several blades with different angles. LV sell blades for the low angle jack for example at 38, & 50 degrees in addition to the standard 25 degrees, which provide cutting angles of 38 +12 = 50 degrees and 50+12 = 62 degrees.

This is not the whole story, but it is probably best I leave it there for the moment so as not to add further confusion.

Regards

speaking of buying LN planes from the US. Has anyone gone to the trouble of getting postal quotes from LN themselves and to some of their suppliers.
I did this maybe 12 months ago and found LN postal cost was very much higher at the time compared to say Japanwoodworkingtools. There was roughly $30 difference. I haven't been through the excersise lately but just wondering if others have found a good place to buy from..ie Highland maybe??

Originally Posted by sinjin

speaking of buying LN planes from the US. Has anyone gone to the trouble of getting postal quotes from LN themselves and to some of their suppliers.
I did this maybe 12 months ago and found LN postal cost was very much higher at the time compared to say Japanwoodworkingtools. There was roughly $30 difference. I haven't been through the excersise lately but just wondering if others have found a good place to buy from..ie Highland maybe??

I sent an email to LN before I decided to go for the LV and asked what shipping costs would be for a Jack plane, sent to Sydney. They quoted me $61.50USD, sent within 5-7 days.

Originally Posted by groeneaj

I think ( ) I understand it slighty more.
Basically you get 3 blades (one with the plane) and two additional blades, 25, 38 and 50 - resulting to 37,50 and 62.

-25 degrees for a shooting board
-38 for smoothing and
-50 for difficult grain

Yes, but.... get all three irons at 25 degrees, then micro-bevel to suit (e.g. at 38 & 50 degrees)

Originally Posted by groeneaj

Now I have a few questions about this.
Q1. What secondary bevel do you sharpen the blades to. Is it +3 degrees on each blade, ie 28 for the 25?

Normally it's +2 degrees, but there is no 'rule'. You put on microbevels to suit your needs. 45 degrees (common pitch) is a general all-rounder, but if it results in too much tearout you try 50 degrees (12 + 38micro), and if that still has too much tearout try 55 degrees (12 + 43micro). I believe Aussie hardwoods prefer 60 degrees plus.

Note that you can't get a 45 degree pitch with a 38 degree iron (12 + 38 + 2 min. micro = 52 degrees). Better to put a 33 degree micro on a 25 degree iron (effective pitch 12 + 33 micro).

As your LAPB and your proposed LAJ have the same bed angle (12 degrees) this applies equally to both planes.

Well, that's my suggested answers to some of your questions. HTH.

Cheers, Vann.

ok so when I put the micro bevel on the blade, can this be done on a waterstone or does it have to be on a grinder?

Why do LV sell the other angle blades for the LAJ if people are just puting micro bevels on the 25 degree blades?

Yes you can do it on the waterstone and they sell the other blades because people are lazy. I was going to say or because they don't have the equipment to adjust the angle but it's basic sharpening gear. If you own and use a plane you should have it. A ground and honed bevel may be more durable than a microbevel.

Andy

A grinder is really best used for removing large amounts of metal fairly quickly, when you are changing the primary bevel to a different angle or removing a chip in the cutting edge. The coarse grinding wheel will leave relatively large scratches which must be followed by honing to achieve a nice polished & much sharper edge. Additionally when working close to the edge there is a greater chance of removing the temper of the blade due to overheating.

The higher angle blades are specifically for working harder and tougher material, and having the primary bevel at a higher angle provides the necessary cutting angle and greater strength in the cutting area of the blade. The use of the micro bevel, which is only 1 or two degrees greater than the primary bevel is intended to make honing easier and quicker as only a very small amount of metal is removed, compared to honing the entire bevel.

Regards

Ok,
So I can either

1. Buy three 25 degree irons and take them to my waterstones puting a secondary bevel of
- 27 on the 25 blade
-40 on the 38 blade
-52 on the 50

2. Buy the 25,38 and 50 and take them to my waterstones at the same angle as above?

Is this right?

I know I'm being painful asking all these questions, your help is very much appreciated

Andy

The cutting angle that you hone to is not precise, as each piece of wood is different from another, and you have to make a judgement by considering the type of wood and looking at how the grain of the wood flows.

A softer species with nice even grain will cut very nicely with the 25 degree blade. Harder woods such as most Australian Hardwoods will cut better with a 38 degree blade, then those with difficult grain will be better with the 50 degree blade. Then again some pieces will only respond well to a scraper plane or sanding. My suggestion would be to get the LV blades at different angles and hone to those same angles. Then get a few pieces of wood of different species and condition and spend a few hours planing them to get some experiences of how things work. Changing the cutting angle by applying a secondary bevel of 1 or 2 degrees is in most cases not going to make an appreciable difference. It will however make a difference to the time it takes to hone a blade, but then the law of diminishing returns will cut in as the secondary bevel approaches the full width of the bevel and you either regrind the blade to the original primary bevel or carry on honing the full width of what has become the new primary bevel.

I started some thirty years ago when I bought a Stanley #6 & a block plane both of which I still use. They way I currently work is using the #6 for the coarser shavings as this is set with a mouth of around 15 thou. I now have a Bedrock #5 1/2 which is set with a very fine mouth and I use this for the final few shavings before applying a finish. Where there is difficult grain and tearout I will use a scraper plane or a card scraper for localised tearout. Using this equipment I can get a glassy finish on most components.

What would I do if I was starting out again ? An interesting question to which I am not entirely sure I have the answer. I like a bit of bling in my tools and that is one reason I have made some of my own, but I also like quality, a reasonable price and good functionality, so I would probably go for the tools I recommended in my earlier post on this thread. Then add some personal touches like handles the way I like them.

regards

Originally Posted by Basilg

Andy

The cutting angle that you hone to is not precise, as each piece of wood is different from another, and you have to make a judgement by considering the type of wood and looking at how the grain of the wood flows.

A softer species with nice even grain will cut very nicely with the 25 degree blade. Harder woods such as most Australian Hardwoods will cut better with a 38 degree blade, then those with difficult grain will be better with the 50 degree blade. Then again some pieces will only respond well to a scraper plane or sanding.

This is why people get 3 blades so they can have them all set at diiferent angles so they're ready to go.

I just have to work out whether I want three 25 degree blades and put a micro bevel to suit or get the 25,38 and 50 respectively.
Then I'll order

This is a quote from Derek C (forum member)
There is no reason not to use a 38 degree or 50 degree bevelled blade instead, if ..

1. ... you do not mind the extra sharpening involved in honing a full bevel face,

2.. ... do not plan to add a camber to the blade.

Working with a 25 degree primary bevel offers efficiency if you are prepared to use a honing guide to create a micro secondary bevel.

Could someone please clarify this for me?

There is a really great DVD done by David Charlesworth that really is worth biuying to show and explian how he does this technique

Andy,

As of this morning (thanks LV...) I have both a BU Jack and BU Smoother, with a total of 4 blades to share between them.

I would suggest buying the 25 degree and 38 degree blades (for end grain and general work respectively) with those primary bevels from LV. These can be O1 or A2 according to your preference (I use both) - apply the 2 degree microbevel to these blades, and when you need to redo the primary bevel keep them at the 25 and 38 degree ngles they came in. These are the most commonly used blades, and its then easy to tell which is which at a glance.

I have a third ''play" blade for stuffing around with cranky grain, etc. This was purchased from LV as a 25 degree A2, but I change the effective cutting angle by altering the microbevel as required. This changes all the time; I've used up to 60 degree microbevel at times (effective cutting angle of 60 +12 = 72 degrees), but that was for some nasty blackwood with reversing grain along its length. When you get to these sort of angles you can prevent tearout, but the plane gets damned hard to push !
Most of the time my "play" blade probably has a microbevel around 50 degrees as a compromise between performance and ease of use. There is always the scraper (or scraper plane) for nightmare grain...

If I ever get the BU Jointer, I'd end up with 5 blades completely interchangeable between 3 different planes (BU Jack, BU Jointer, BU Smoother)

Originally Posted by groeneaj

This is a quote from Derek C (forum member)
There is no reason not to use a 38 degree or 50 degree bevelled blade instead, if ..

1. ... you do not mind the extra sharpening involved in honing a full bevel face,

2.. ... do not plan to add a camber to the blade.

Working with a 25 degree primary bevel offers efficiency if you are prepared to use a honing guide to create a micro secondary bevel.

Could someone please clarify this for me?

I'll have a go at 1. on the basis that explaining it is a good way to learn...

The key word is 'honing'. Remember, grinding on a wheel sets the primary bevel, sharpening on a series of stones gets rid of the scratches so the EDGE is sharp. Honing is a final touch up on the very finest stone you have or a leather strop. Now, honing is very slow as the abrasive is very fine, so ideally you only want to do it to a small area of the blade, which is why you do not want to hone 'a full bevel face' - it'd take a long time. If you grind and sharpen to the primary bevel (ie 25), then add a micro bevel with the fine stone and hone it, you only have to sharpen and hone a small amount of the steel with the fine stone and strop.

Thanks for that reply Mr Brush,
I'm going to put my order in soon to LV.

I love the style of LN, but for now LV will be my plane of choice as they are cheaper, yet still a quality tool.

A 38 deg micro bevel, would be a good option for a smoother correct? How about for creating a flat surface?

Also the 50 micro bevel for reversing/cranky grain etc, could this be used on a table top when you have sacrifised having the grain going in one direction for appearance resulting in grain going both ways?