Thread: I've been gambling.....

Saw plate looks fine, getting those teeth sorted will improve things substantially

Originally Posted by johknee

Then I gave it a quick hit with 240, 320 and 400. I thought I'd better stop there, in case I took too much material off. Is this as far as I should/could/would go?


As you can see, the teeth need some work. I'll get to them, eventually. The next job is to clean up the handle.....

johknee

I would not be overly concerned about removing too much metal. By the time you are at 400g W&D your arm would fall off before you removed too much metal. Really you have to live with the pitting, but the good side is that it is largely cosmetic and won't affect saw performance: It just doesn't look quite as bright and shiny as we would like.

I was going to suggest taking to the sides of the teeth with a wire brush to clean up there as the sides of teeth are one of the hardest areas to bring back to bright metal (I am not talking about the face of the tooth as the file does a better job than any amount of W&D) as they destroy you sanding paper in double quick time. However, I enlarged the last pic and by the time you have jointed the teeth down to the lowest broken tooth you will have new saw plate for most of the way. So make sure the plate immediately above the toothline is clean.

Incidentally I would recommend jointing in two stages. The reason for this is that the stting of the saw needs to be retained in the same orientation. Although only the top third of the tooth (maybe up to a half) is set, sometimes too much set is applied and it will extend down to the root. If you then try to bend a tooth in the opposite direction it may well snap off again. It could be the reason so many teeth appear damaged on this saw. A secondary reason is that as you shape the teeth you are less likely to "overdo" the filing. Joint half way down, shape the teeth and then joint again. The alternative is to joint all the teeth off and start filing in new teeth from scratch. it is a little more involved, but we can help with that process if you decide to go down the radical track.

Refinishing the handle is one of the more satisfying aspects to my mind. When you reassemble the back it is best to tap it onto the blade in the longitudinal direction as this applies tension at the same time. A back tapped on in the vertical plane will sometimes result in the blade buckling even though it was straight before the back was removed.

By the time you are finished you will have a thorough understanding of the process. And then it is on to the Disston and the Ward.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

johknee
The British saws are not really my strength and I have only one Slack sellars backsaw (14") to which I can compare. Interestingly, it has three saw screws and has no medallion at all despite having a brass back (they were normally a more expensive version of the model where both brass and steel were offered) so it would appear that Slack sellars were not big on this aspect of medallions and this may explain why the medallion does not have the SS name on it, but I stress my exposure to the brand is very limited.

For reference, and if it helps at all, here's my 14" SS saw.
I believe it's all original.

SS.jpgSS1.jpgSS2.jpg

Cheers,
Stu

Stu

Thanks for posting those pix.

That confirms the medallion is correct. I would guess the saw could be between the two WWs and the lambs tongue puts it at the top end, I would think, as the lambs tongue would have to be hand finished. Your saw looks very tidy.

Regards
Paul

Okay, the saw plate will stay as it is. I'm not prepared to lose any limbs for the sake of a shiny plate! I need those limbs for other saw restos!

On to the handle.
This saw was found in an old carpenter's toolbox that resided underneath a hedge, out in the elements. Considering where I found it and the state it was in, it could only be improved.

IMG_1856.jpg IMG_1857.jpg IMG_1858.jpg

The photos above show cracks in the handle. No surprise considering the heat/rain and all that it has been exposed to. I sanded the handle to try and bring up some 'clean' wood, but (again) I didn't want to remove too much material.
A question; should I fill the cracks in the handle? I've been reading other posts in the forum archives and some have suggested filling the cracks with epoxy. What would be the next step here?

Before I finished up for the day, I thought I'd lightly oil the handle (I only had Osmo) just to see...
IMG_1859 (1).jpg IMG_1860 (1).jpg
Not 100% happy with it, so I may try and sand it again to remove some of those "rain" blotches.
What do you guys suggest for finishing the handle? BLO, shellawax? I'm guessing it is just a matter of personal preference.

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

johknee
Incidentally I would recommend jointing in two stages. The reason for this is that the stting of the saw needs to be retained in the same orientation. Although only the top third of the tooth (maybe up to a half) is set, sometimes too much set is applied and it will extend down to the root. If you then try to bend a tooth in the opposite direction it may well snap off again. It could be the reason so many teeth appear damaged on this saw. A secondary reason is that as you shape the teeth you are less likely to "overdo" the filing. Joint half way down, shape the teeth and then joint again. The alternative is to joint all the teeth off and start filing in new teeth from scratch. it is a little more involved, but we can help with that process if you decide to go down the radical track.

Thanks, Paul. This will be helpful for when I'm ready to joint and sharpen. Might need to start searching for some files and make a saw vice too! That's another project I'm keen to get started on.

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

.........When you reassemble the back it is best to tap it onto the blade in the longitudinal direction as this applies tension at the same time. A back tapped on in the vertical plane will sometimes result in the blade buckling even though it was straight before the back was removed.

I have a confession . I, in my ignorance, removed the back by separating it from the plate vertically. The plate does look a little err wobbly and 's' like. I'll have to attend to that at some stage. This is exactly why I started with this saw, so I stuff up on it and not the others that are in better condition. I do enjoy making mistakes, but only when I learn something from it!

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

johknee
By the time you are finished you will have a thorough understanding of the process. And then it is on to the Disston and the Ward.

I certainly hope so! If not, I have 8 other saws on the way and by the time I'm done, I should have a bit of a clue! Thank you, Paul!

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Thumbthumper

For reference, and if it helps at all, here's my 14" SS saw.
I believe it's all original.

SS.jpgSS1.jpgSS2.jpg

Cheers,
Stu

This is beautiful, Stu!

Originally Posted by johknee

This is beautiful, Stu!

It didn't start out so beautiful 🙂
Only surface rust thankfully, but I had to joint, file, and set the teeth.
I did refinish the handle with a shellac/BLO mix (just cleaned to prep, didn't sand).

After some work on the teeth, your saw will make a fine user.

Hi Paul. Thanks for the little nugget re. best way to install saw back. I did not know this and have one saw plate that I had given up on getting straight. I can give this a try.

Hi JK. 8 more saws on the way.....better add a saw till to your list of projects

G'day MA. Walked into a 2nd hand market this morning and picked up another 12" S&J brass back saw. That makes it twelve I prefer even numbers, so I thought I'd better get myself another. The saw till is on the list; a list that seems to grow longer by the day!

Originally Posted by johknee

G'day MA. Walked into a 2nd hand market this morning and picked up another 12" S&J brass back saw. That makes it twelve I prefer even numbers, so I thought I'd better get myself another. The saw till is on the list; a list that seems to grow longer by the day!

It's an addiction: Don't try to fight it.



Regards
Paul

JK. My favourite number (just to be contray) is 13, so if you want to make me happy you will have to get another one!

Just my take on installing backs on saws: I tap the spine on about 25mm forward of its final position (usually just enough to engage the beginning of the slot in the handle), then tap it back lengthwise until it meets the back of the slot. This will usually introduce a little tension and hold the saw plate straight - if it doesn't you may have either a bent spine (which you would have noticed when you had it off), or possibly uneven pressure from the folded spine. The latter is a lot harder to deal with, but fortunately very rare in my experience. Most of the time, re-applying the back as I described will get you a nice, straight saw-plate.

Point #2: You might find, after you've tightened the bolts, that the last little bit of the sawplate at the tooth line is slightly curved. This is caused by either a slight curve in the handle slot, or the spine & blade slots not being quite concentric. The best response if you do see this is to ignore it, it makes no difference to performance since you never use that part of the saw, and trying to correct it is a very tricky procedure and can end up making matters worse (damhik!)...

As to the cracks in the handle, I reckon if you gave it good soak in Danish oil, they'd close up, maybe not completely, but to the point where they'd be barely noticeable. Trying to fill cracks like that usually has the effect of making them more evident, in my experience. If you look after the saw & give the handle a good waxing every now & then, I doubt you'll have any trouble from them....

And yes, I agree with Paul that you've probably got that plate as good as it's practical to get it (& I must say, it looks way better than I thought it would from your original pics!). The pits don't look as severe as I thought they were, so it should be a good user. I cleaned up an old panel saw blade that Paul gifted me to be cut up for other potential uses. I decided to have a go at this one to see if it could take on a new life. It was in very rough shape to start with & I think ended up with deeper pits than your saw. This was the better side, iirc:
1.jpg

It needed a new handle & of course some new bolts, which were duly cobbled-up & a saw was re-born:
8.jpg

Somewhat to my surprise, it worked quite well, few if any pits ended up being right on a tooth tip where they might've done no good. Sometimes I thought the saw dragged a bit once fully engaged in a cut, but it was probably more to do with imagination than reality. I think its only fault is it just looks a bit un-cosmetic...

Cheers,

Wow, that's a fantastic rescue-saw! The handle is especially nice.

I'll be working on the saw during my spare time during the week. See if I can make some progress because I have quite a few more resto jobs on the way. Someone, help me!

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

JK. My favourite number (just to be contray) is 13, so if you want to make me happy you will have to get another one!

I do not wish to disappoint, MA. Looking at lucky number 13 as I type....

Received this one today...
IMG_1868 (1).jpg IMG_1869 (1).jpg
The handle seems a little loose, so I'll probably pull it apart and see if I can figure out why. I'll give it a clean and oil/wax the handle while it's apart and then sharpen, once I figure out what files I need....

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

The alternative is to joint all the teeth off and start filing in new teeth from scratch.

Do you need a bastard cut file for re-toothing a saw from scratch? Would a second cut file do the job for re-toothing say a 10 tpi backsaw? I suspect it would, albeit with slower speed and potentially dulling the file a lot quicker?

Cheers,
Andy