Thread: How sharp should marking gauge be?

I have no experience with that type mine are all pin type, They list replacement wheels, however would it not be a fairly simple task to touch it up on a stone.

Generally, any marking gauge should be pretty sharp. If iGaging is selling dull wheels, and you can mount it on an arbor made from a small bolt, you could try chucking the arbor in a drill motor and refining the edge on wet-and-dry sandpaper (fine grade) taped to a flat surface like a piece of stone tile. I haven't done this, mind; it might not work, so you'd want to buy a replacement wheel from iGaging first.

A wheel gauge that's not sharp is just embossing the wood. I just donated a wheel gauge to a local thrift store because the edge was dull, the wheel was fixed on the end of the shaft, and it wasn't worth trying to figure out how to sharpen it.

The veritas wheel gauges are all high hardness and lapped sharp, flat on one side. The older Stanley wheel gauges were less sharp wedge shaped with a double bevel so that you could mark fast without following grain in long grain (they don't get damaged as easily, either).

Originally Posted by China

... would it not be a fairly simple task to touch it up on a stone.

This.

My marking gauge wasn't super sharp new, but it didn't take much on a stone to hone to an easily cutting edge. Just plop the flat side down on your stone, and a finger on the back for downward pressure and motion is enough.

The answer to your question is "as sharp as you need it to be". If wood is hard, it needs to be sharper to penetrate, and if your looking-gear is age-challenged, a blunt point leaves a wider line that you can see...

As something of a marking-gauge obsessive, I have far too many gauges so I can haul out a gauge that's just right for any particular job, but if you are into practicality & minimalism, then the "trick" taught to us by my first school woodwork teacher (an ex-cabinetmaker) will cover 99% of situations very well. That trick is to file a knife-edge or 'chisel' point on a pin gauge so that it doesn't tear cross-grain. By angling the 'chisel' edge ever so slightly, it will tend to pull the gauge firmly against the edge and lessen the chance of the point skating away from the intended path. I use hardened points & cutting 'knives' on my gauges, but they are really over-kill. All the old guges from a century ago & any recent 'economy' gauge I've struck had soft, easily-filed pins.

However, as with all 'jack of all trades tools', the modified gauge isn't quite the same as a pin gauge or a "cutting gauge" - it can still tear cross-grain if you aren't careful, so at a minimum I would always have one of each, and my preferred "minimum" is actually 4 gauges:
She-oak set.jpg

That's pin, cutting, a pencil gauge & a mortise gauge. Mine are made a bit fancier, just because I can, but you can make perfectly serviceable gauges in any of several simple styles.

Pin gauges are best at marking along the grain, and also useful for marking a series of points at a precise distance from an edge. It's also handy when marking a "stopped" line - press the point in where you want the line to stop, then mark up to it, the point will 'click' into the stop so you don't over-run (something you don't want to happen when marking out a hinge-mortise in a highly visible place!).

Cutting gauges make fine lines with or across the grain & don't tear the fibres. But they are extremely handy when you want to cut a deep line, like for the back of a hinge-mortise, for example, or any other place where you want a shallow cut (less than about 3mm) parallel with an edge. Whether you go with a wheel or a knife type cutter depends on how you use the gauge. A knife is what I favour because it's very robust & I can more easily mark to a stopped point without over-running.

And perhaps the best thing that first woodwork teacher showed us is how to make fine lines from a gauge or marking knife stand out on dark woods: take a tiny pinch of French chalk and wipe it across the line:
Chalked lines.jpg

As the years go by & my vision deteriorates, I bless Mr. Lee more frequently for that lesson...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by qwertyu

I have this marking gauge
https://www.timbecon.com.au/igaging-...-marking-gauge

and have always found that it is not sharp and when marking hardwoods its not uncommon for me to press a bit harder and then slip

Then I saw rob cosman effortlessly cut some timber (though it looks like pine) with his here
End Grain Glue Myth Busted | What does it mean? (Surprise Ending) - YouTube

So how sharp should they be? Is rob's sharp because he makes his own tools and that how he wants it? If I bought a veritas one would it be as sharp?

Are there replacement blades I can put on my igaging?

All gauges need to be sharp. That is where you start. However, cutter type does affect the way it works.

Wheel cutters do not cut deeply. They leave a fine line (one of their strengths), but on hardwood, especially, the line they leave is much shallower than, by contrast, a Japanese cutting gauge’s knife.

If a wheel cutter is dull, remove the wheel and freehand it on a fine diamond stone (600 grit), and then on something a little finer. Japanese knives are freehand honed on water stones. A pin gauge should have the point refined into a knife.

The fundamental rule, when using a marking gauge, is NEVER to make the line in a single stroke, but ALWAYS do so in several strokes. Start light, just breaking the fibres, and then add weight progressively as you continue. This way the line goes deeper without losing control and leaving a ragged kerf. This is especially important across the grain.

The issue with end grain is that lines on hardwood either end up shallow, or the straws close up and the marks disappear. This is the situation with dovetails, and one of the reasons I came up with the blue tape method, which creates good contrast for older eyes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I have the same gauge but the wheel in mine is pretty much on its last legs. I contacted Timbecon but while they happily sell the I-gaging tools it appears they have decided not to provide any ongoing spares support

I have just written to I-gaging to see if they have an Aussie-based parts reseller or if they’ll sell directly to me. If they will sell to me directly I’ll start a group-buy thread to gauge interest.

CT, check to see if the Veritas or Tite-Mark wheels fit. These are excellent quality cutters.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Oh another thought, I don't think the round cutters are supposed to roll on the timber, which would make it very hard indeed to cut the fibres I would imagine. So perhaps check if yours is tight enough that it stays put.

Originally Posted by D.W.

The veritas wheel gauges are all high hardness and lapped sharp, flat on one side. The older Stanley wheel gauges were less sharp wedge shaped with a double bevel so that you could mark fast without following grain in long grain (they don't get damaged as easily, either).

David, as you know, the Veritas and Tite-Mark wheels (I cannot speak for other makes) are handed. That is they are single bevelled with the bevel on the fence side. The permits a perpendicular face to the side facing away from the waste. A mortice wheel gauge would have one wheel the reverse of this.

There are notable advantages for this design. The main one is that the line is preserved on the “good” side, such as a dovetail baseline or a tenon shoulder. These wheels are thin, and the lines are thin even when cutting more deeply. By contrast, knives (such as Japanese cutting gauges) have thicker blades. As you cut deeply, so the kerf opens up wider. Still, the knives are single bevel, and again the line opens on the waste side.

One upshot of this is that you need to take care when marking mortice or tenon lines with a single gauge from a reference side. It is better to mark the lines with an “inner” and “outer”. An example here is the Veritas double wheel gauge.

I see a problem with the Starrett gauge you mention - a double bevel knife or wheel would create a wider line, and the deeper it cut, the more accuracy would be lost.

For marking tenon shoulders, especially in hardwood, I think the best gauge is a pin gauge, followed by a knife gauge. A wheel gauge comes a distant third in this regard. Across the grain, wheel gauges rule, followed by knive gauges. A pin is a no-no, unless converted into a knife.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

CT, check to see if the Veritas or Tite-Mark wheels fit. These are excellent quality cutters.

Thanks Derek; I’ll give the Veritas one a go as it is available from Carbatec and quite cheap. Our local independent tool shop (Taylors Hardware - a quick plug for an Aussie battler) is a CT reseller and can order one in for me.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

David, as you know, the Veritas and Tite-Mark wheels (I cannot speak for other makes) are handed. That is they are single bevelled with the bevel on the fence side. The permits a perpendicular face to the side facing away from the waste. A mortice wheel gauge would have one wheel the reverse of this.

There are notable advantages for this design. The main one is that the line is preserved on the “good” side, such as a dovetail baseline or a tenon shoulder. These wheels are thin, and the lines are thin even when cutting more deeply. By contrast, knives (such as Japanese cutting gauges) have thicker blades. As you cut deeply, so the kerf opens up wider. Still, the knives are single bevel, and again the line opens on the waste side.

One upshot of this is that you need to take care when marking mortice or tenon lines with a single gauge from a reference side. It is better to mark the lines with an “inner” and “outer”. An example here is the Veritas double wheel gauge.

I see a problem with the Starrett gauge you mention - a double bevel knife or wheel would create a wider line, and the deeper it cut, the more accuracy would be lost.

For marking tenon shoulders, especially in hardwood, I think the best gauge is a pin gauge, followed by a knife gauge. A wheel gauge comes a distant third in this regard. Across the grain, wheel gauges rule, followed by knive gauges. A pin is a no-no, unless converted into a knife.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I think someone making drawers or thicknessing something at a reasonably fast rate would be less concerned about the way the veritas gauge works and the stanley type would be fine. The line only needs to be large enough for the chisel to catch as you're gripping it (Which isn't much - like catch a fingernail).

I get that beginners and folks doing very fine work may want a very precise line, even beyond what the stanley gauge would cause (which is probably thousandths of an inch difference - the line wouldn't be deep, only as deep as needed).

and yes, I'm aware of how the gauges work - I don't have a tite mark, but have the veritas type. The japanese single bevel gauges are the same way - you have to know which side the bevel is on or you'll have an error in marking.

As time goes on, I prefer lighter marks. maybe it's laziness. My dovetails generally don't show anything once there's glue involved, but they're always covered, anyway.

David, when did you start making dovetails?

Anyway, it strikes me that the Starrett is likely for scribing metal rather than marking wood. I have trouble imagining how even a light line with a double-sided blade into wood will retain accuracy. But then I am just an amateur.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

David, when did you start making dovetails?

Anyway, it strikes me that the Starrett is likely for scribing metal rather than marking wood. I have trouble imagining how even a light line with a double-sided blade into wood will retain accuracy. But then I am just an amateur.

Regards from Perth

Derek

2006, and it's a Stanley, not a starrett.