Thread: First jack plane for an apprentice carpenter?

Originally Posted by kenour

one of my ideas for using the plane I purchase was while trimming out a house, I would keep it and an adjustable shooting board inside next to what I was working on; then, if I have to shave a couple of thou to make it fit better, I could do it on the spot (some of the houses we work on are huge, so you get a work out carrying things back and forth).

now that's a challenge !

for use as a shooting plane, I personally think the #5 is a little too light, and prefer the #6 size.

However, if shooting is likely to be the major use, then I highly recommend one of the LA Jacks.
I also recommend you invest in a Spyderco Fine or Ultra Fine stone -- because these stones can be used dry for touching up an edge at the work site.

The Luban #5 LA Jack is looking appealing at the moment, I know it's probably not as nice or versatile as a LN 610 Low angle Jack rabbet, but then again I wouldn't cry if it was stolen!

for use with a shooting board, the Luban / Woodriver is a much better plane.
Because the blade on the LN#610 extends all the way across the sole it is unsuited to use on a shooting board

Originally Posted by ian

now that's a challenge !

for use as a shooting plane, I personally think the #5 is a little too light, and prefer the #6 size.

However, if shooting is likely to be the major use, then I highly recommend one of the LA Jacks.
I also recommend you invest in a Spyderco Fine or Ultra Fine stone -- because these stones can be used dry for touching up an edge at the work site.

I would also be using it for as many other things as I can think of, easing and backing off doors etc. I just thought of trimming arc as another use for it, because any chance to not use a power tool I'll take. Not that I'm anti power tool by any stretch of the imagination, but when I see people running power for a tool to do one small job that could have been done quicker using a hand tool, it just seems a bit ludicrous.

Originally Posted by ian

for use with a shooting board, the Luban / Woodriver is a much better plane.
Because the blade on the LN#610 extends all the way across the sole it is unsuited to use on a shooting board

Oh I meant more versatile in general use, not for shooting To get the best of both worlds was thinking a LA jack and a rabbet block plane should get me out of trouble in most situations.

As I was checking out LA planes, I came across the Veritas Jack Rabbet Plane, any opinions on this guy? Looks like something I would consider for home at a later date

I wrote a review of this plane here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...bbetPlane.html

It also shows how to use it as a shooting plane!



The Jack Rabbet plane is truly the Swiss Army Knife of planes (I would get a couple of extra blades). This and a Stanley #45 (or, better still, the LV Small Plow plane) could be a complete workshop of tools!

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by kenour

I would also be using it for as many other things as I can think of, easing and backing off doors etc. I just thought of trimming arc as another use for it, because any chance to not use a power tool I'll take. Not that I'm anti power tool by any stretch of the imagination, but when I see people running power for a tool to do one small job that could have been done quicker using a hand tool, it just seems a bit ludicrous.



Oh I meant more versatile in general use, not for shooting To get the best of both worlds was thinking a LA jack and a rabbet block plane should get me out of trouble in most situations.

hmm, don't know how to word it without sounding like raining on your parade or coming across as critical.

but for a first or only plane a low angle is not the way to go. yes there is much hype and advertising blurb and many fans of them, but in reality they, particularly for job sites are not the way to go. they are fantastic at doing end grain and mitres so i'm not saying they are not a good addition. but as i was alluding to in an earlier post. a number 4 is going to be more useful. the low angles were designed for end grain and mitres , sometimes in the old days called chariot planes and the typical stanley low angle was often known as a bucthers block plane.

sure, you can change the bevel to be finer, but it will wear much quicker, if honed at 30 then it is not much different an angle to a bevel down, if steeper then its just silly. if kept nice and sharp (so the effort and concentration must not lapse) much of the time they work the bee's knees, i have seen them at woodwork shows where the sellers are demonstrating but its not a realistic demonstration. when they go wrong its a godam mess ,they tear the guts out the timber. this is where a bevel down plane does better, particularly when the grain changes direction, which it does plenty!. a #4 or even the #3 are better for this on site, a bevel up if your running along an arc or sill, or whatever, (to remove machine marks or better fit) especially oak will grip the fibres and lift them and you have just destroyed a valuable piece of timber. with a #4 or 3 the damage is far less (if you have set the chipbreaker correctly hopefully no problem at all) and you can adjust for it, turn around. you can also have a blade with a very strong radius and use it as a scub plane on the back of skirting, ark, and other things, when the giprock or some other problem is stopping the timber sitting flush, thats why the back of skiting has the hollow profile to begin with but sometimes it is not enough. you can not do that with power plane. a #4 is fine for doors as well, although if you going back to a maintenance job or a reno job and say the door just needs a little off in one place so it will close correctly. a small burnoose plane is often good and quick because you don't have to take the door off its hinges. a bevel down plane, say #4 you have another blade with a back bevel on it, set the back iron very close and you have 50 or more degrees which will help with difficult timber.

by KD board do you mean you mean kiln dried (presumably hardwood) or feature interior wall cladding, i am trying to figure out how someone can possibly burn a motor out taking off 2mm at a time, especially if its wall cladding which is only 12mm thick. window sill less than 35mm, even a beam might be 70 (many other places like stairs or wainscoting) but the power plane should be able to handle that. maybe it was a underpowered light weight model, i have never burnt a power hand plane out ever, i don't think i have ever seen it actually happen either. or perhaps it was like many of these newer type power tools the salesmen in the tool shops are streering people toward ,including tradesmen. that are the brushless type (the salesmen spout all sorts of benefits to them but imo they crap).

tools where you can change the brushes are far better, you keep a spare set in the trailer or ute and while they do last yonks they go at the most inconvenient times, it can give you the impression you have burnt the motor out, but put new brushes in (takes a minute once you have them in your hand) and its good to go again. my advice is don't buy brushless power tools they are pushing nowadays, they are not as robust as the ones with user replaceable brushes and practically makes them a disposable power tool OVMV.

sounds like your closer to a partner than an apprentice . and your mate lets you do things the way you want too, no problem from me if it works, kudos to you. very good an sensible about the moulding too. but on the other hand, to play devils advocate (say if not mates, or quicker workers, or just to show the flip side for an anominous apprentice). i would question whether its good practice to keep the power compound mitre saw outside, especially in winter or on drizzley days (wrecks the timber, with spots at best (shows up later when the painters come in) and at worst shrinkage occurs down the track on warmer days). all second fix material should be brought inside unless its a average size house, sunny and you can finish it in one day (even then moved into the shade under the carport or such. especially feature wall cladding (usually is delivered inside anyway). if the house has the space the saw should be as close as possible to the work area and timber imo, walking back and forwards over an entire day and worse again with multiple workers adds up to hell of a lot of time (can be hours). from a boss perspective time is money, as a worker he is there to make money for the boss. not 20% or some small amount, he should be getting near 100% on his return at least.

i always pay my blokes above award wages, give bonus at xmas, buy em beer or lunch from time to time, if have a very good week give a bonus, occasionally if its too hot i would take em out in my boat and go fishing or give them the day off. but while at work they work hard. I have often been know to hook up the winch on front of the 4WD and winch the timber closer to the job site to save walking time, especially if the timber yard ws slack and left it at the bottom of the hill, or we all work at quick pace at the beginning and move it by hand so its cuts out all that pacing or dordulling back and forwards all day, wastes money and wears you out quicker.

nothing wrong with using hand tools where it works well, and keeping a shooting board nearby can be a good idea, although the compound mitre saws nowadays with 80 or so teeth and fine adjustment for degrees work much better than they used too, you can get a finished edge straight off them. doesn't mean you don't get use from a hand plane though. or other hand tools.

still hand tools are useful, and pleasurable and at times still do better than a power option so i see where you are coming from. getting all bevel up planes i would certainly avoid imo, a good addition sure. if you can not afford the LN or clifton or LV then the clones are possibly good. the LN and cliftons are improved in more ways then i even mentioned earlier, they are better steel, yeah, thicker blades (whether O1 or A2) the lateral levers are stronger, the yokes are normally better, and the adjustments are much better(finer), you will notice it. the chipbreaker which is only on the bevel down planes is designed to break and curl the shaving (its also thicker on clifton etc and at a good angle to curl the shavings), a bevel up plane doesn't have it which is why when it goes bad it makes a horrible mess of things. bevel up planes are not a new thing, they have been around since the hand tool only age, there is a reason why bevel down planes are still the bench mark to go by. bevel up, fantastic, nothing better for end grain though .

cheers
chippy

Hey chippy, I don't have ovaries so don't worry about hurting my feelings I prefer candid logic based advice any day of the week!

Well gee whiz, after thinking I had it all sorted, and having a LA Jack in my online shopping cart, I now have to re-evaluate everything... Thanks for that

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

by KD board do you mean you mean kiln dried (presumably hardwood) or feature interior wall cladding, i am trying to figure out how someone can possibly burn a motor out taking off 2mm at a time, especially if its wall cladding which is only 12mm thick. window sill less than 35mm, even a beam might be 70 (many other places like stairs or wainscoting) but the power plane should be able to handle that. maybe it was a underpowered light weight model, i have never burnt a power hand plane out ever, i don't think i have ever seen it actually happen either. or perhaps it was like many of these newer type power tools the salesmen in the tool shops are streering people toward ,including tradesmen. that are the brushless type (the salesmen spout all sorts of benefits to them but imo they crap).

He was taking 10mm off a few of the rails for this fence/gate, quite long lengths. Was using a three month old Makita KP0800K (a replacement he just got because someone wrecked his old one buzzing yellow tongue flooring flat... I would stop lending my tools if I was him!). He just pushed it too hard and burned out the armature. Long deep continuous swipes without any time to cool down.

12018712_10208899664554104_683259420_o.jpg

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

sounds like your closer to a partner than an apprentice . and your mate lets you do things the way you want too, no problem from me if it works, kudos to you. very good an sensible about the moulding too. but on the other hand, to play devils advocate (say if not mates, or quicker workers, or just to show the flip side for an anominous apprentice). i would question whether its good practice to keep the power compound mitre saw outside, especially in winter or on drizzley days (wrecks the timber, with spots at best (shows up later when the painters come in) and at worst shrinkage occurs down the track on warmer days). all second fix material should be brought inside unless its a average size house, sunny and you can finish it in one day (even then moved into the shade under the carport or such. especially feature wall cladding (usually is delivered inside anyway). if the house has the space the saw should be as close as possible to the work area and timber imo, walking back and forwards over an entire day and worse again with multiple workers adds up to hell of a lot of time (can be hours). from a boss perspective time is money, as a worker he is there to make money for the boss. not 20% or some small amount, he should be getting near 100% on his return at least.

Oh of course, our materials are stored inside to acclimatise the timber. I just whip out and cut then whip back inside, we always try and set the droppy up in a covered area. If the weather is bad we do work inside, it's just that when we're restoring/renovating a section of a building, we have to keep dust down as other sections are often still occupied. Also... I have been pushing him to buy a kapex and some proper dust extraction Then it would be less of an issue!

We did have other 'faster' blokes on the books, but they were let go. Have cycled through quite a few chippies actually. The builder prefers quality above all else and actually doesn't mind if we spend longer doing something, just has to be perfect. I mean, it's not like we drag our arses, we spend the required amount of time to get things done to the highest possible standard. I know if I ever end up working for someone else, that this will more than likely not be the case; at the moment though, I enjoy being given the required time to do things perfectly.

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

i always pay my blokes above award wages, give bonus at xmas, buy em beer or lunch from time to time, if have a very good week give a bonus, occasionally if its too hot i would take em out in my boat and go fishing or give them the day off. but while at work they work hard. I have often been know to hook up the winch on front of the 4WD and winch the timber closer to the job site to save walking time, especially if the timber yard ws slack and left it at the bottom of the hill, or we all work at quick pace at the beginning and move it by hand so its cuts out all that pacing or dordulling back and forwards all day, wastes money and wears you out quicker.

Good man I hear you about moving material in and out, sometimes it's unavoidable. I mean I have only been in the game for a year, and we do tackle new builds completely different to renovation/restoration work, still learning.

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

nothing wrong with using hand tools where it works well, and keeping a shooting board nearby can be a good idea, although the compound mitre saws nowadays with 80 or so teeth and fine adjustment for degrees work much better than they used too, you can get a finished edge straight off them. doesn't mean you don't get use from a hand plane though. or other hand tools.

still hand tools are useful, and pleasurable and at times still do better than a power option so i see where you are coming from. getting all bevel up planes i would certainly avoid imo, a good addition sure. if you can not afford the LN or clifton or LV then the clones are possibly good. the LN and cliftons are improved in more ways then i even mentioned earlier, they are better steel, yeah, thicker blades (whether O1 or A2) the lateral levers are stronger, the yokes are normally better, and the adjustments are much better(finer), you will notice it. the chipbreaker which is only on the bevel down planes is designed to break and curl the shaving (its also thicker on clifton etc and at a good angle to curl the shavings), a bevel up plane doesn't have it which is why when it goes bad it makes a horrible mess of things. bevel up planes are not a new thing, they have been around since the hand tool only age, there is a reason why bevel down planes are still the bench mark to go by. bevel up, fantastic, nothing better for end grain though.

Oh I agree about a good compound mitre, can get a really nice finish if set up property with a good blade. Unfortunately I use what's onsite, which isn't always the best quality, or frequently serviced and calibrated. I do intend of bringing my gear one day, but happy to use others tools for now rather than exposing my toys to the job site for as long as possible.

I suppose I best go off and think about my options all over again then! I mean... I didn't want to influence the results by mentioning the one I wanted from the start, but... Just look at it... A thing of beauty

customjack325405[1].jpg

Originally Posted by kenour

... Just look at it... A thing of beauty

customjack325405[1].jpg

Well, Ken, I do like the flat front knob option, but that horrible tote spoils it for me! I'm also not a fan of thumbscrews for lever caps - Old Lennie Bailey hit the mark with the cam-operated system, which allows you to set the pressure just right (enough to hold the blade securely, but still allow easy adjustment), then forget about it, unless & until you change something on your blade/cap iron pair. The screw types are too easy to overtighten, and you should slack them off before trying to make adjustments - no big deal, but an extra bit of fussing not necessary with a Bailey mecahnism.

One Norris idiosyncracy Veritas managed to avoid (at least it doesn't happen on any of my Veritas planes), is the tendency for the cut to increase a little as you tighten down the lever cap screw - I guess they worked out the geometry of the lever cap forces better. But there is a built-in problem with these all-in-one depth of cut/lateral adjuster mechanisms, & that is, when you move the blade, unless the adjuster rod happens to be in the centre position, which it rarely is because the blade edge is almost never dead square (otherwise you wouldn't need a lateral adjuster, would you?), it tends to slew the blade as you move it. The Bailey adjuster may have loads of built-in backlash, but at least it doesn't slew your blade every time you try to adjust it.

There, I've let some of my prejudices hang out. Apart from those gripes, I think Veritas planes are well-made and pretty good bang for buck in their price range (I own several). But if I were in your shoes, I think I'd still get a good old Stanley or Record #4 or #5 for carting around to the job sites....

Cheers,

Well Ian, you know I shall have to respond to those comments

Well, Ken, I

do like the flat front knob option, but that horrible tote spoils it for me!

I think that choices of handles are quite personal. The Veritas system allows you to choose from a few different sizes and shapes, including one very similar to the Bailey pattern.

I'm also not a fan of thumbscrews for lever caps - Old Lennie Bailey hit the mark with the cam-operated system, which allows you to set the pressure just right (enough to hold the blade securely, but still allow easy adjustment), then forget about it, unless & until you change something on your blade/cap iron pair.

One either adjusts the thumbscrew or one adjusts the levercap screw. The cam frequently requires the levercap screw to be adjusted, especially when the chipbreaker is set at a slightly different position.

It does appear that the OP is after premium tools/planes. A premium #5 for rough work is not my priority, but who am I to choose for him. That said, either the LN or the Veritas would be quality purchases.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

... I think that choices of handles are quite personal. The Veritas system allows you to choose from a few different sizes and shapes, including one very similar to the Bailey pattern....

Indeed, Derek, which is why I said I like the flat knob option.

It's actually too tall for my likings, so I'd still replace it. At least it's got a broad, flat top, which allows the type of grip I prefer. But I wouldn't expect Veritas to keep 10 different lengths of studs & knob heights to cater for every fussy old coot out there. The fact that Stanley changed to the "high" knob after making the "low" knob for about 40 years intrigues me. Did they have a majority of customers who disliked the low, flat knob all that time and take so long to react? An interesting question to ponder - p'raps market research hadn't yet been invented, and that's the simple answer. I have to commend Veritas for trying to please everyone; they won't of course, but at least they are trying hard. More power to them......

Originally Posted by derekcohen

... One either adjusts the thumbscrew or one adjusts the levercap screw. The cam frequently requires the levercap screw to be adjusted, especially when the chipbreaker is set at a slightly different position.....

Yes, my friend, but you usually only adjust the lever cap screw to get the right tension once, and you don't need to unscrew it to adjust the blade settings. I did acknowledge that this only applies as long as you don't make any radical changes to your normal cap iron/blade combo. In practice, you can set the cap iron over quite a range without altering the tension significantly. At least with the bog-standard old Stanley & Record cap irons, p'raps it's a different matter with the after-market ones.

At least we agree that we'd use a more prosaic model for out-jobs and keep the Rolls-Royces at the home shop. I'd be too busy keeping my eye on the expensive hardware to get any real work done!

But as you say, you pays your money & you makes your choice. If you are going to use a tool a lot, wherever that may be, it may as well be one you really like rather than something you consider 'second tier'.
Cheers,

If you are going to use a tool a lot, wherever that may be, it may as well be one you really like rather than something you consider 'second tier'.

Totally agree, Ian.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I am going to go out on a whim here and say that a good quality plane for a chippy is a waste of money. I say this, because I know builders, and I know cabinet makers. It would be a crime to see an LN (or sorts) banging around in a chippies trailer.

I think for what Op is going to use it for, a modern Stanley would be just fine. Having been an apprentice once, I know what money is like, so I would be scouring gumtree for a second hand plane.

What have I done...

can_small[1].jpg

I suppose this is a forum, not a consensutorium!

Not too concerned with price, I have never shirked at paying a high price for good tools (but then again, my disposable income used to be higher than my total income at the moment!). Also, nothing will be 'banging around' in my trailer :P My tools are too expensive for that carry on! I would be more worried about my new plunge saw getting damaged than a plane.

Has anyone purchased from Axminster Tools & Machinery - Power Tools, Hand Tools, Woodworking, Metalworking & more! Just looking at a few things, and they seem to have very reasonable prices. They don't pull your pants down on postage either.

Originally Posted by kenour

What have I done...

can_small[1].jpg

I suppose this is a forum, not a consensutorium!

If you want to start a heated discussion, let's talk about the best way to sharpen the blade

Originally Posted by Pearo

a modern Stanley would be just fine.

The modern Stanley Jack Plane No.5. #12.005 is about $179 locally right?

For $18 more I could get the Stanley 62 LA Jack from Amazon at the moment, which would be a better option right (wooden handles, A2 blade etc)?

So then, if I'm going to spend $200ish, for an extra $100 I can get a LV or LN LA Jack from axminster.co.uk... (unless anyone knows of a place to get it cheaper locally?). But, then if I spend ANOTHER $100, I can get a custom LV #5 or a LN #5...

This is how my bloody brain works... And how I ended up with a brand new BWW for my first motorbike :P

Give Jim Davey a call. For that kind of money you can get a fully fettled plane, sharp and ready to go that will last you a lifetime.
http://www.jimdavey-planes-sharpenin...f-11a92b435ba5